Yes that is all speculation. Let's allow results to be voiced instead of speculation. That's all that needs to be said. I'm just trying to turn away 500 post of "this manifold is worth it"/"this manifold is not worth it". You happened to be the first one to do so. There's still nothing pasted or linked concerning results of the dvdt manifold. Let's wait and see.
Matt again it's not about performance really it's about performance per $. How much better in whp would a manifold have to be for you to spend $300 more then the next one? That's a more than fair question.
____________________________
Sean aka Slippi
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How much better in whp would a manifold have to be for you to spend $300 more then the next one? That's a more than fair question.
Shouldn't that be left up to the buyer? Obviously the OP decided the manifold is worth the money. Obviously you have decided it isn't. Why argue when different people just having different opinions about where and how to spend their money? We have no data on this manifold yet (at least that I've seen).
I would say that this SMIM is worth the money, as well, I know Albert's quality, and it is top notch.
I wouldn't rip on the DVDT Fab SMIM or FMIC too much, it is over-engineered and has alot of time into it. As well, I am sure that Albert would be willing to work with his customers if there are any problems with a product.
If you have forgotten, Magnus was notorious for splitting manifolds for years, due to design, material thickness and gusseting, and weld quality. There are others as well.
When it comes to welding, even the most precise welder may have a failure from time to time -- it is just part of the business.
From a price standpoint, I am sorry, but try to fab your own SMIM on a small-scale level (less than 25 units) and tell me how you are going to make money off them. It is not easy. With the Beyond Redline SMIM (the one I am running), $900 is extremely fair -- especially considering the amount of time and money put into R&D, then materials, cost of machining, welding and time associated -- they are not making a real profit on these with the small batch that was produced.
As well Sean, I don't know why you are complaining about the price of this manifold, as I know how much you paid for yours from Jake. No harm meant, but you just have to keep an open mind on the quality you are getting for the price; especially when they are one-off or low volume custom parts.
As for the Magnus, I wish I had sold that thing sooner, as I had to re-weld it THREE times! Essentially, the entire thing needed to be fully re-welded due to cracking and blown seams. It is a tin can versus the DVDT Fab and Beyond Redline SMIM's that are SOLID designs that can handle alot of abuse without failure, and personally are better engineered products than the old Magnus manifolds out there. The Evo cast manifold is a totally different animal and should not be even in the same statement as a DSM SMIM.
DVDT FAB = $1200
AMS VSR = $900-1100 depending on options
Beyond Redline = $900-1050 depending on options
Magnus Race = $900
JMFab Drag = $815
Venom = $700
Magnus Street = $600
JMFab Street = $600
JMFab Race = $600
Though the price may be the highest for the DVDT Fab unit, it is likely the smallest batch size on the market for DSM-specific sheet metal intake manifolds.
As well, performance per dollar...My Magnus produced 504AWHP/413tq at 29psi, and 740AWHP/696Tq at 49+psi -- my Beyond Redline SMIM produced 614AWHP/488TQ at 29psi, and 767AWHP/658Tq at 42psi. I would say that the difference in price of the Magnus versus the Beyond Redline SMIM was WELL WORTH the 110AWHP and 75TQ increase at the identical boost level and ignition timing with exact same AFR's.
Lets see how it does on the dyno, and at the track!
____________________________
Tim Zimmer
2.3L, BW475, AEM, etc.
Very true which is why I wouldn't say anything bad about the company just what has been said by others who have seen or owned the part. My point isn't to discredit this manifold or stray people away from it's performance but spending $1200 on a smim is again silly. I would say what it really is but I don't want to insult you or anyone else that has or is going to buy it at that price.
If you keep letting these companies charge you out the rear for stuff they will just keep doing it. Like I see turbo's going for like $1600 when you can get something similar in performance and reliability for hundreds less. It's not just isolated to this manifold but this is a prime example. The old magnus design used to be on every other car on this site and went for like $600 and made 30-40whp more than stock with teh right turbo and tuning. Now they make them look a little nicer and maybe make another 15-20whp if you max it out and sell it for twice the price.(I know Matt will say that these numbers are speculation which he's right but if anything speculation high. If your current manifold is not restricting flow you CAN go too big and decrease velocity which will then not gain you any more hp until more flow is present)
Concerning an intake manifold, High velocity comes at a price. It takes energy to accelerate the mass aircharge. This energy comes from the crank by the piston displacement having to draw the charge into the cylinder. This energy is called pumping loss. Look at the comparison results of the jmf race manifold versus the drag manifold. This was with a mild setup that shouldn't see the race manifold as a restriction. If the air can move slower but the same amount of mass reaches the combustion chamber, then you have a gain.
The runner sizing doesn't look that much different. In fact, the runners look a little longer than typical.
____________________________
Matt
dd '90 GST, Holset H1C
I would say that this SMIM is worth the money, as well, I know Albert's quality, and it is top notch.
I wouldn't rip on the DVDT Fab SMIM or FMIC too much, it is over-engineered and has alot of time into it. As well, I am sure that Albert would be willing to work with his customers if there are any problems with a product.
If you have forgotten, Magnus was notorious for splitting manifolds for years, due to design, material thickness and gusseting, and weld quality. There are others as well.
When it comes to welding, even the most precise welder may have a failure from time to time -- it is just part of the business.
From a price standpoint, I am sorry, but try to fab your own SMIM on a small-scale level (less than 25 units) and tell me how you are going to make money off them. It is not easy. With the Beyond Redline SMIM (the one I am running), $900 is extremely fair -- especially considering the amount of time and money put into R&D, then materials, cost of machining, welding and time associated -- they are not making a real profit on these with the small batch that was produced.
As well Sean, I don't know why you are complaining about the price of this manifold, as I know how much you paid for yours from Jake. No harm meant, but you just have to keep an open mind on the quality you are getting for the price; especially when they are one-off or low volume custom parts.
As for the Magnus, I wish I had sold that thing sooner, as I had to re-weld it THREE times! Essentially, the entire thing needed to be fully re-welded due to cracking and blown seams. It is a tin can versus the DVDT Fab and Beyond Redline SMIM's that are SOLID designs that can handle alot of abuse without failure, and personally are better engineered products than the old Magnus manifolds out there. The Evo cast manifold is a totally different animal and should not be even in the same statement as a DSM SMIM.
DVDT FAB = $1200
AMS VSR = $900-1100 depending on options
Beyond Redline = $900-1050 depending on options
Magnus Race = $900
JMFab Drag = $815
Venom = $700
Magnus Street = $600
JMFab Street = $600
JMFab Race = $600
Though the price may be the highest for the DVDT Fab unit, it is likely the smallest batch size on the market for DSM-specific sheet metal intake manifolds.
As well, performance per dollar...My Magnus produced 504AWHP/413tq at 29psi, and 740AWHP/696Tq at 49+psi -- my Beyond Redline SMIM produced 614AWHP/488TQ at 29psi, and 767AWHP/658Tq at 42psi. I would say that the difference in price of the Magnus versus the Beyond Redline SMIM was WELL WORTH the 110AWHP and 75TQ increase at the identical boost level and ignition timing with exact same AFR's.
Lets see how it does on the dyno, and at the track!
My manifold is a ONE off piece which you know and has been proven to flow enough to make over 800whp. By the way I didn't buy it from Jake. Jake sold it to this guy for $2500. I picked it up off ebay for ......well lets just say less than this manifold by A LOT.
More details on the hp gains seen would be helpful as I would highly doubt just swapping manifolds after only a 15minute cool down period would show gains of 110whp. I have seen the results from the smim testing and no manifold gained 110whp more than any other manifold> I don't think there was one with 30whp more than another. You would have to have a extremely restrictive intake setup to gain 110whp. I don't have to tell you this you already know this though. I think you woudl have seen similar gains just from ditching your regular magnus and going with a magnus race manifold or JMF race manifold. Maybe not the same but not that drastic as seen in your dyno numbers. That's like saying I gained 100whp from going from my gt14 to my hx52 at the same psi boost and a/f ratio.
Alberts quality ya right pm me and Ill tell you all about his quality. Hope it holds 8pounds mine didnt.
Didn't you have his original version from years back? The boxy one?
As well, if you had weld quality problems, then you should have sent it back for it to be fixed, and pressure tested.
I would agree, every manifold should be pressure tested prior to sale, but sometimes manufacturers forget this crucial point, or they just do a percentage of the batch volume.
____________________________
Tim Zimmer
2.3L, BW475, AEM, etc.
My manifold is a ONE off piece which you know and has been proven to flow enough to make over 800whp. By the way I didn't buy it from Jake. Jake sold it to this guy for $2500. I picked it up off ebay for ......well lets just say less than this manifold by A LOT.
More details on the hp gains seen would be helpful as I would highly doubt just swapping manifolds after only a 15minute cool down period would show gains of 110whp. I have seen the results from the smim testing and no manifold gained 110whp more than any other manifold> I don't think there was one with 30whp more than another. You would have to have a extremely restrictive intake setup to gain 110whp. I don't have to tell you this you already know this though. I think you woudl have seen similar gains just from ditching your regular magnus and going with a magnus race manifold or JMF race manifold. Maybe not the same but not that drastic as seen in your dyno numbers. That's like saying I gained 100whp from going from my gt14 to my hx52 at the same psi boost and a/f ratio.
Well Sean, I am not pulling anyone's leg with my results -- that is straight fact and has been proven. If you have an issue, you can contact Beyond Redline and tell them it is BS. The dynotuning was done under identical conditions, and the Magnus was an extreme choke point at my HP level.
As for Jake's old manifold, I didn't know you were the 2nd buyer of it -- I only remembered the original person who bought it for the price you mentioned.
____________________________
Tim Zimmer
2.3L, BW475, AEM, etc.
Shouldn't that be left up to the buyer? Obviously the OP decided the manifold is worth the money. Obviously you have decided it isn't. Why argue when different people just having different opinions about where and how to spend their money? We have no data on this manifold yet (at least that I've seen).
<< Waiting to see how the manifold performs.
I'm not product bashing but simply pointing out why I think it's ...silly.. to pay that much for a smim which has not been proven yet. For that matter has DV/DT FAB ever put out a smim before? If Eagle put out a smim and made it look nice and said it's good would you pay $1200 for it? They make great rods for the money(ask twick) and have been around for a while.
Not to mention I"m not arguing. I ask twick for advice on things a long with Matt. I am not saying I"m right and they are wrong just saying how can you pay that much for a smim and to be honest no one has given me a reason yet except wait for results and telling me about other manifolds that cost a good penny(but have all been ran before)
Well Sean, I am not pulling anyone's leg with my results -- that is straight fact and has been proven. If you have an issue, you can contact Beyond Redline and tell them it is BS. As well, it was dynoed one day, then swapped over, then dynoed the second day under identical conditions. The Magnus was an extreme choke point at my HP level.
As for Jake's old manifold, I didn't know you were the 2nd buyer of it -- I only remembered the original person who bought it for the price you mentioned.
Like I said the tune either had to be different or the setup had to be very restrictive, which you said and I know you would not bs me or this site. But again your comparing a street manifold to a race manifold.
He dosent pressure test any manifold he makes, I asked him to and he said he didnt have the know how. I wish anyone who buys his junk the best , thats all i have to say.
not sure where your getting these jmfab street and race prices from, i just bought a brand new
race manny for 450....and the street is the same price. well 1200 for a intake manny with no testing
being done is a little crazy, show me #'s and if its worth it i would be all over it.
Their website. The drag manifold is the one discussed here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by woooop
He dosent pressure test any manifold he makes, I asked him to and he said he didnt have the know how. I wish anyone who buys his junk the best , thats all i have to say.
It should be. You're violating several rules.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slippi84
Like I said the tune either had to be different or the setup had to be very restrictive, which you said and I know you would not bs me or this site. But again your comparing a street manifold to a race manifold.
You're saying that one manifold isn't worth the money. And then you say another manifold is more restrictive than a third manifold. Sean, let it go. Let's wait. It's not like we havn't seen a "drag manifold" of the same caliber as the aforementioned jmf manifold out perform the jmf race manifold. Why would you think the tech is just done. That there would be no improvements worth the increase in cost.
Let's wait. The stock intake manifold has been proven to what horsepower? that doesn't mean that you shouldn't upgrade. The same goes with another manifold. If you think there's no more room for significant improvement, then you havn't followed the automotive performance industry.
You can ask me for advice now Hey let's just let it go. You said what you had to say. Which was technically in violation of the forum rules. You see, SOMEONE has to try this manifold to determine if it will deliver more. Just like SOMEONE has to push the hx52 to see if it's a 9 second turbo. If you personally only bought 800whp proven parts; well then, that wouldn't be interesting, would it?
____________________________
Matt
dd '90 GST, Holset H1C
Their website. The drag manifold is the one discussed here.
It should be. You're violating several rules.
You're saying that one manifold isn't worth the money. And then you say another manifold is more restrictive than a third manifold. Sean, let it go. Let's wait. It's not like we havn't seen a "drag manifold" of the same caliber as the aforementioned jmf manifold out perform the jmf race manifold. Why would you think the tech is just done. That there would be no improvements worth the increase in cost.
Let's wait. The stock intake manifold has been proven to what horsepower? that doesn't mean that you shouldn't upgrade. The same goes with another manifold. If you think there's no more room for significant improvement, then you havn't followed the automotive performance industry.
You can ask me for advice now Hey let's just let it go. You said what you had to say. Which was technically in violation of the forum rules. You see, SOMEONE has to try this manifold to determine if it will deliver more. Just like SOMEONE has to push the hx52 to see if it's a 9 second turbo. If you personally only bought 800whp proven parts; well then, that wouldn't be interesting, would it?
I respect you Matt and your knowledge you bring to this site but I have been here long enough to know the rules. Just because I ask for advice does not make me a noob
I said my piece with backing not just throwing out my opinion as if it were law and other have just said lets wait. How bout this for a question what kinda results does everyone(not just you matt) think this thing would have to produce to make people say yeah Sean was wrong it's def worth $1200? No one has yet to answer that question and I think its' neither flaming nor hear say and it's topic related so I think it's well inline with the rules
If you keep letting these companies charge you out the rear for stuff they will just keep doing it.
I don't LET Albert "charge me in the rear". I support his business, and help influence his designs. I recognize superior craftsmanship and effort in his products.
Albert is a friend, who owns the means to produce the parts that I need. I support his business because he takes care of me. I do not believe in mass produced manifolds where empirical evidence exists showing a SEVERE difference in airflow distribution due to the tapered plenum.
In regards to the performance, I'll have a definate answer on that aspect soon. I have been bugging Albert to get the thing on a flow bench, but he doesn't have one at his immediate disposal. So empirical evidence and numbers are not readily accessible.
Slippi, if you don't think it's worth the money, then great, don't buy it, but we don't care to hear your $.02 in every one of your posts.
I don't LET Albert "charge me in the rear". I support his business, and help influence his designs. I recognize superior craftsmanship and effort in his products.
Albert is a friend, who owns the means to produce the parts that I need. I support his business because he takes care of me. I do not believe in mass produced manifolds where empirical evidence exists showing a SEVERE difference in airflow distribution due to the tapered plenum.
In regards to the performance, I'll have a definate answer on that aspect soon. I have been bugging Albert to get the thing on a flow bench, but he doesn't have one at his immediate disposal. So empirical evidence and numbers are not readily accessible.
Slippi, if you don't think it's worth the money, then great, don't buy it, but we don't care to hear your $.02 in every one of your posts.
I'm making valid points. Points you may not agree with but they are still valid. If you don't like them I'm sorry but I'm not breaking any rules by talking about the manifold YOU started a thread about. You don't have flow bench results you don't have dyno numbers you don't have back to back 1/4 mile comparisons and yet you get flustered when I say my .02 about the manifold. Like everyone I"m waiting for results but if someone says my name in their post and brings up something I said I have the right to respond. So if you don't like what I have to say or don't want me to talk about the topic you started(which I am on topic and neither name calling or flaming your product) then don't respond. Others see the DV/DT FAB on the manifold and give you the benefit of the doubt, sorry I don't. I have posted many thread about parts that I thought were good and others gave their input and opinion which is what I wanted, that's why I started a thread in the first place. If you want to prove me wrong put down big numbers or times. I actually hope you do I'm not rooting against you man. I in all seriousness wish you good luck with your car.
By the way from the way your talking about your relationship with Albert and the way in another thread you welcomed someone to the DV/DT FAB family I take it you really didn't pay 1200 for this manifold as it was more of a you put this on post pictures get others to see it and I"ll make it at cost or a reduced price which is cool I know how the game works but if that is the case don't make it seem like you paid 1200 for it.
I'm making valid points. Points you may not agree with but they are still valid. If you don't like them I'm sorry but I'm not breaking any rules by talking about the manifold YOU started a thread about. You don't have flow bench results you don't have dyno numbers you don't have back to back 1/4 mile comparisons and yet you get flustered when I say my .02 about the manifold. Like everyone I"m waiting for results but if someone says my name in their post and brings up something I said I have the right to respond. So if you don't like what I have to say or don't want me to talk about the topic you started(which I am on topic and neither name calling or flaming your product) then don't respond. Others see the DV/DT FAB on the manifold and give you the benefit of the doubt, sorry I don't. I have posted many thread about parts that I thought were good and others gave their input and opinion which is what I wanted, that's why I started a thread in the first place. If you want to prove me wrong put down big numbers or times. I actually hope you do I'm not rooting against you man. I in all seriousness wish you good luck with your car.
I never said you weren't making valid points, and no, neither I nor Albert have information to satisfy your palette. We're working on it, but with him in Il, and me in Tx, it doesn't work too well. I try my best to help him promote his products and business via proxy as I can.
There is a difference between giving your $.02, and bring so overly redundant about your opinion that people want to block you.
If you truly had a notion of fluid and pulse flow dynamics, again (I'll be redundant this time) you would understand this manifold and why it is better w/o the "numbers", and why its design is inheritably stronger than boxy sheet metal plenums. Maybe you should ask Rau, or Buschur (barf) for dyno proof on their intake manifolds as well?
Quote:
don't make it seem like you paid 1200 for it.
I NEVER said (nor implied) how much I paid for this manifold.
Again, if you don't like the money it costs for something that is properly designed, then don't buy it. We don't need you trolling and post whoring the same redundant crap over and over.
I never said you weren't making valid points, and no, neither I nor Albert have information to satisfy your palette. We're working on it, but with him in Il, and me in Tx, it doesn't work too well. I try my best to help him promote his products and business via proxy as I can.
There is a difference between giving your $.02, and bring so overly redundant about your opinion that people want to block you.
If you truly had a notion of fluid and pulse flow dynamics, again (I'll be redundant this time) you would understand this manifold and why it is better w/o the "numbers", and why its design is inheritably stronger than boxy sheet metal plenums. Maybe you should ask Rau, or Buschur (barf) for dyno proof on their intake manifolds as well?
I NEVER said (nor implied) how much I paid for this manifold.
Again, if you don't like the money it costs for something that is properly designed, then don't buy it. We don't need you trolling and post whoring the same redundant crap over and over.
Welcome to my ignore list
I don't have to they drive some of the fastest dsm's period...you do not. I'm trying to be logical and civil about this but if your really so head fast that you believe your manifold to be so advanced and worth more than EVERY manifold on the market that is sold to a regular customer without more than a trust me its' good and you don't know flow dynamics(which by the way shows your true ignorance = ASS U ME) I find that laughable. Again good luck to you
Come on guys. No reason to keep going back and forth saying the same thing over and over. Let's just keep the thread clean and see what happens with the manifold.
____________________________
Pat...AKA Project Pat
You might want to update the list of manufacturers described in your petition, since they are all from 6+ years ago. And in 6 years, they have not made an article for DSM's on these manifolds.
You want to know why they haven't produced an article? It is called the entry of the US-spec Mitsubishi Evolution 8 into the market, putting the nails in the coffin for DSM'ers.
This is the reason why the intake manifold testing has been done on Evo's instead of DSM's by a few magazines, along with a few shops. The May 2008 DragSport Magazine Issue #65 was an in-depth dyno-backed article on a dozen or so SMIM's for the 4G63 Evo setup.
This just won't happen unless a shop does it, and that cuts into costs and chargability.
____________________________
Tim Zimmer
2.3L, BW475, AEM, etc.
Now that he's finally offering them up for sale, I've got to say it's about damn time someone figured out to use a round plenum with tapered runners and not the other way around. It's not THAT hard to figure out that using a cylindrical plenum has nearly the same footprint yet a lot more volume. The only shame is that Albert hasn't built a jig and started mass producing these to cut the cost down to market levels (I'm not sure why a piece of aluminum pipe with a channel cut out, two stamped caps, some bent up runners and 2 cnc'd plates and a tb flange costs so much). I guess they'll be an elitist fad until he gets bored and before long, they'll all be soda cans.
One thing I noticed from the the tech article posted today, Albert includes a distribution block and a nice brake master resvior bracket w/ t-bolt clamp. Only thing that looks shaky is that you have to cut your hood for it(resvior) to fit in the new location.
Also flows 51lbs/min on 19psi so far with a gt35rhta. Info on previous setup flow would be useful.
One thing I noticed from the the tech article posted today, Albert includes a distribution block and a nice brake master resvior bracket w/ t-bolt clamp. Only thing that looks shaky is that you have to cut your hood for it(resvior) to fit in the new location.
Also flows 51lbs/min on 19psi so far with a gt35rhta. Info on previous setup flow would be useful.
Cutting your hood takes minimal effort, and because of the size of the plenum, is honestly nothing, considering you can retain use of everything, A/C, power steering, etc.
I think I was hitting equivalent flow on a gen 2 Magnus manifold at 23 psi before adding this manifold to my car.
Please don't flame for asking this but why is this thread and your other one even up? There has been no proof either good or bad on this manifold other than alot of trash talking. I know you got a new part and want to talk about it but in my opinion you should of shown some reserve and waited untill you had something to back up the price tag of this unit. I do have one tech question for you. If the creator does not have any way to flow test these then how did he come up with the design? I do not know about some of the things you have mentioned earlier in this thread but I do know that just because something should work on paper does not mean it will work in reality.
I hope you get the results you are looking for and if anything people should be happy that the dsm world is still having companies that are willing to spend their time into making parts for these cars. There is way more money to be made with the evo community.
Because the conceptual design of the manifold is superior to any other manifold on the market when it comes to maintaining form true to fluid and pulse flow dynamics. This manifold left my university's Dr in Automotive engineering, and FSAE overseer, stunned and speechless when he looked at it. His only remarks were, "Yup, that's pretty much how you are supposed to make 'em."
There has definitely been an increase in my car's volumetric efficiency and little to no loss in low end torque, which everyone should be trying to attain in their engines.
Albert has been attempting to get some fabbed up to get flow benched, but because he has other priorities (like making money through the contracts he has with other businesses for machine work) he hasn't had the time.
Please don't flame for asking this but why is this thread and your other one even up? There has been no proof either good or bad on this manifold other than alot of trash talking. I know you got a new part and want to talk about it but in my opinion you should of shown some reserve and waited untill you had something to back up the price tag of this unit.
The point of a thread is the discussion that results. Some people get a bit excited, yes, but how else will things get hashed out? I want to know all about this manifold personally, including the results, but the only way the process begins is with this thread, right?
Personally, I love when members have very strong opinions, and disagree strongly as a result. One side has to be right, and it gets settled eventually. Then that information is archived and we all benefit. Then one side has a large serving of crow and we more forward.
(I know Matt will say that these numbers are speculation which he's right but if anything speculation high. If your current manifold is not restricting flow you CAN go too big and decrease velocity which will then not gain you any more hp until more flow is present)
Hey let's just let it go. You said what you had to say. Which was technically in violation of the forum rules. You see, SOMEONE has to try this manifold to determine if it will deliver more. Just like SOMEONE has to push the hx52 to see if it's a 9 second turbo. If you personally only bought 800whp proven parts; well then, that wouldn't be interesting, would it?
