More affordable electronics

[LightningGSX]

I own a electronics engineering business and in the process of designing several controllers(boost, fuel etc), at or exceeding the quality of other aftermarket products, for a sub $200 price.Input as to what DSM'ers would like to see in these(feature wise) would be appreciated. thanks

 

[DrZiplok]

Taking a stab at this...

General:
- Compact size; there's not a lot of room in a DSM, and mounting stuff is always tough.
- Subtle appearance. Too much of the gear on the market looks hideous, or screams "steal me".

Boost control:
Hard to make suggestions about this; the market is pretty well covered.
- Gear sensitivity for the FWD guys.
- Low/high switch input (for failsafe operation with eg. water injection - something I want personally).

Fuel control:
This market's also pretty aggressively covered, the used S-AFC 1 (5-knob version) occupies the low-cost slot; to defeat it you would want to add a throttle/boost input a la the S-AFC II, but keep the unobtrusive looks and size.

HTH, just some thoughts. An integrated unit, something akin to a dumbed-down piggyback would probably be popular.

 

[Bohrn]

make a monitor for knock, boost, and timing in one guage, and make it cost effective. Maybe put a good air/fuel led in there too.

Mabye you would make a 3, 4 and 5 item thing. 3 is knocksum, timing, a/f. 4 items have same as first one, with Exaust gas temp added, and the full load one has a boost guage in it too. One unit, fits on top of dash(on slanted part, either left or right side) or in center vent cluster or even in a stereo slot.

Oh, and give discounts for Canadians. There are alot of DSMers up here, but we have to pay alot more for US $ parts.

 

[ArtOfSpeed]

What we need are things that make sense. Gauges that do more in less space, for instance.
1) A single gauge for important but not-oft-used features like: Oil temp/oil press/water temp gauge that allows two modes: cycle all three every X seconds, or hold on one you choose. It is nice to be able to check the status of these now and then, but to devote space for all the gauges is a pain for those of us trying to stay stealth.
2) Digital EGT gauge. Digits and a bargraph? Would be nice...
3) Knockbox would be VERY nice to have. Knock is our #1 tuning parameter. This would of course require ECU interfacing and may well be beyond your immediate scope and intention. It would be best served with a gauge style user interface and a "hidden" box for the interface electronics (opinion)
O2 monitors are basically useless (Blinkey light meters). Everyone makes them and they are really not accurate enough to tune with. OZ has the DIY wideband that does the job quite well and would probably be hard to compete with price-wise. If you could, the three major caveats with it are voltage requirements, temp/backpressure compensation, and the impossible to find sensor, but those fixes are due in 2.0
Again, my opinion, but I prefer LED to LCD displays. The Nordskog digital gauges are a good example. Blue displays would be nice, but that's purely aesthetic.

 

[LightningGSX]

Actually, nothing is beyond my scope.For starters I was thinking a Boost gauge(peak hold),Egr gauge(peak hold),and a EBC All in one.These would be microcontroller based so things such as Knock count(or any other parameter)could be easily included by software mods.I was also thinking maybe a hide away module with separate controls and a separate digital display(VCD or LCD).The display could be as thin as a centimeter,configured pretty much any way desired, and also be reversed for HEADS-UP mounting.

 

[LightningGSX]

Oh yeah, did I mention all for the price of the average EBC?

 

[ArtOfSpeed]

If you are going so far as to think about afr correction, i.e., a replacement for a AFC, then can I just say one thing? Integrate the correction capability with the speed densitiy options of a VPC in a single box, sell it for a reasonable cost, and you will have a winner. Even an AFC addon like a VPC that does speed density to Karmann...maybe a nice little Atmel based solution with upgradeable firmware for injector base size changes...and you would grow a following. The VPC is out of production. The next least expensive step that makes sense is the AEM EMS, and at a street price of 1350 to 1400 is a bit steep for pigybackers like myself. Used VPC's go for 700 plus with harness and a chip.
Hmm. The possibilities!

 

[LightningGSX]

Originally posted by ArtOfSpeed
If you are going so far as to think about afr correction, i.e., a replacement for a AFC, then can I just say one thing? Integrate the correction capability with the speed densitiy options of a VPC in a single box, sell it for a reasonable cost, and you will have a winner. Even an AFC addon like a VPC that does speed density to Karmann...maybe a nice little Atmel based solution with upgradeable firmware for injector base size changes...and you would grow a following. The VPC is out of production. The next least expensive step that makes sense is the AEM EMS, and at a street price of 1350 to 1400 is a bit steep for pigybackers like myself. Used VPC's go for 700 plus with harness and a chip.
Hmm. The possibilities!

I'm not familiar with the VPC,I'm assuming it uses a vane for airflow sensing as apposed to a Von Karmann type which measures vortexes.I don't understand what speed density options it could have since speed density systems calculate airflow via known engine data(MAP,RPM,air charge temp) and airflow is not measured.Maybe you or someones else could explain this to me?Also could you explain what "VPC that does speed density to Karmann" means?I appreciate the input Thanks

 

[LightningGSX]

I am working on a basic AFC type controller with more inputs and more programming flexibility and a Hotwire type MAF system(higher possible count over the karmann type,less restriction than the vane types)any input on this?

 

[FastRthenU]

I would love to see a Wide band complete kit for a good price. I also dont want to have to build my own. Cause i dont know how to

 

[Newlogics]

How about a logger type unit, which would fit in single stereo slot, and have 3 or so electronic gauges linked to it, and user can program the main unit to display desired info on the gauges. Kinda like whole standard gauge setup in one package, with flexibility of monitoring any aspect of ECU. (I guess it would have to have some peripheral inputs besides ECU harness for boost and EGT streams.

In addition, having logging and storage capability would help greatly. I gues smart-media cards or memory sticks would work out nicely here. Of course having motorized screen to be able to see what you're doing and may be displaying even more parameters at the same time wuld be a great plus.

I guess that kind of system can be easily worth a combo of all the gauges and gadgets that people would have to get otherwise, which I assume is about $600-$800.

 

[ArtOfSpeed]

VPC is, in HKS-ese, Vein Pressure Convertor. It uses a MAP sensor and IAT sensor as inputs, performs the necessary calculations based on an EPROM you purchase (specific to vehicle model and injector size), and outputs a continuous duty cycle square wave whose frequency is proportional to the airflow. In short, it converts a Karmann MAF based car (Or hotwire as well, I believe, but don't quote me!) into a Speed-Density based system, totally removing the MAF from the loop. It's output mirrors the output of a MAF; a square wave of varying frequency. Yes, the Ve of the motor would be a major factor, and is modified beyond the scope set in the internal EPROM with a "trim" knob. Fine tuning is accomplished with either an AFC or the HKS GCC, or Graphic Control Computer (or some such malarkey). So instead of going from a restrictive Karmann MAF to a somewhat less restrictive Hotwire MAF, you remove the MAF and just stick with an air filter. Bonuses are said to be improved drivability under varying conditions as compared to a heavily modified MAF car, as well as the ability to vent your BOV to the atmosphere. (A big concern for some, it seems, and generally bad for a "Hey! I counted that air already!" MAF system which hates leaks)
Hope that helps and/or makes sense to someone besides myself. Anyone with corrections, chime on in!

 

[rubbersidedown]

Sounds like an extremely in depth project. I'm excited to see the results and will definitely by one of the first to buy one when you're finished! As for ideas... i think everyone has it pretty much covered. Although i personally would rather have a a standalone digital EGT gauge to mount next to my boost guage. Its convenient to have the two next to each other and would be one less hassle when dealing w/ this new electronic peice you're developing. It should have too many built in features, guages, and whatnot because then it just becomes a hassle to use and read. if its going to have data logging capabilties then i think it would be kind of nice to have some sort of serial port to interface w/ a laptop or palm pilot so you could possibly view a real time graph based on various readings and whatnot. I've never really had the chance to work w/ such equipment because i just don't have the money so i don't know if i'm bringing up ideas that already out there. I like the idea of quickmedia, memory sticks and other types of storage. very nice. but i still believe and added serial port would be nice as well I guess i can't really think of much else that anyone hasn't already. damn... oh well. good luck!

 

[InferiorWang]

fitting in an area by the stereo would be nice. ability to connect to palm or computer thru serial or usb would be nice if it datalogs. Instead of connecting it might be neat to use a Sony Memory Stick or Secure Digital media card (I chose those two because my palm uses one, and my laptop the other) Gauges that cycle would be good. Various fuel/oil/water temp/pressure that you can choose what to show and when to cycle would be good. Boost gauge and knock gauge would be awesome. EBC would be cool, especially if it could adjust boost for each gear. AFC would be great. Obviously you wont get all this into one unit, but if you did you could make a killing.

 

[Dyre]

I would love a ProfecB type EBC that didnt require a vac line run into the car-
A ProfecB is basically a simple stepper motor controller, so there must be able to build one that retails for far less than $300 tag on the ProfecB-

 

[rubbersidedown]

everyone wants all these guages in one unit... why? you can't read them all at the same time. And some should really be in view at all times like the boost and egt guages. So i think that integrating those would be a waste. And i said something earlier about being able to interface w/ it via a serial port... i think it should have that and the memory stick idea. Not just one or the other because then it just wouldn't be as versatile. it should have quite a few options and readings but still be easy to use and read.

 

[ArtOfSpeed]

My only recommendation was to consolidate the seldom used gauges into one electronic unit. It is hard to set aside space for seperate fuel pressure, oil temp, oil pressure & water temp gauges, especially since you only check them so often. It would be nice to have them in one gauge cup, and be able to "scroll" to see the desired function. An Auto Scroll mode would let it step through each one with a 1 to 5 second delay. So if you're tuning your WOT runs, you want to see fuel pressure all the time. If you're running the car hard and it's in a normal state of tune, you would be interested in water and oil temps, so you set it to scroll. If you had it set to fuel pressure and your Check Engine light or Oil Light came on, you'd want to hit the button and scroll through the list real quick...Yep, oil pressure's up, temp is good, I'm not running hot... stuff like that. I agree, though, integrating tuning gauges is counter productive. You don't want an integrated EGT and Boost gauge unless they offer seperate displays. Or and EGT and wideband together, unless they have sep displays. Makes perfect sense!

 

[LightningGSX]

My current prototype displays EGT and Boost at all times(digital display) .It can have up to 15 other inputs or outputs including Analog,Serial,parallel and PWM(so just about any sensor or sending unit or straight from the ECM).It also has a UART serial interface ,so it can output any and all data to another serial device(laptop,palm,desktop or just about any other datalogging device)at up to 9600 baud.I'm not a computer programmer though so someone else would have to write software for that purpose.I also use FLASH microcontrollers so its basically an open platform and could be updated or other features could be incorporated at any time.My only holdup is wether to use a stepper/servo motor or a solenoid to actuate the wastegate.Please keep discussing this,your ideas are helpful. Thanks again

 

[LightningGSX]

and I forgot to mention the displays(LCD or VFD) are serial too,so others could be added for other info to be viewed

 

[ArtOfSpeed]

Stepper controllers are generally accepted as being more accurate and do a better job with boost spikes, but are more expensive and demanding of the CPU. Solenoids work, are cheaper, and last a long time. Apex-i uses a dual solenoid setup in their AVC and AVC-R with reasonably good success. Are you planning on building and packaging your own actuator or using someone elses? If your own, I'd start with a solenoid unit and upgrade later to a stepper model. The solenoid would be easier to program and get running, easier to build a reliable actuator (no valves to machine), and cheaper. Stepper code is a pain even with a PWM output.
BTW, are you running Atmel or PIC uC's?

 

[LightningGSX]

Microchip PIC's

 

[EROK81]

I would like to see EBC's and WB O2's as well. I like the "more affordable" aproach

 

[truwarrior]

We 2G guys need something to monitor knock. I'm all for an all in one unit that is a EBC, EGT, knock counter, boost gauge with warning that would all fit in a single DIN where the stereo would go. Have it talk too like a copilot. "warning overboost 21 psi",

 

[Bohrn]

oh hell no! I don't want #####in Betty in my car too

Enough of her in the cockpit!

'spose it would be a cool option tho.

 

[LightningGSX]

I've also developed a gear sensing device for gear dependent boost,with a neutral safety output for a remote start system.And by the way the all-in-one module I made for my DSM's is voice controlled(could talk to if you wanted it to)