IC's...Air/Air or Air/Water? [Merged 7-7] intercooler liquid

[Enigma_Man]

Those products all seem a little ridiculous... Cooling your radiator? Why not just go with a lower-value thermostat? The radiator can cool the water just fine....

The coolers for the ICs look like a good idea, but it also looks like they block more air then would be helpful.

The "ram air" cooler wouldn't do poop, because the air only passes by there for a split second, there's no time or surface area enough to cool it down.

Anyway, you'd think this "team of engineers" would be able to make something a little better than an AOL homepage with center-aligned bright and bold fonts

Hehe, well, enough picking apart, I'm sure Adrenaline and his amazing spelling powers have heard enough about his shoddy company (just a guess, stop me if I'm wrong). Most effective bolow off valve ever. My bolow off valve netted me a gain of 3000 horsepower!!!!11 Hehehe, we all know how important those super-sequential valves are... Yep.... HAHA, I just looked at the "detailed" pictures of some of the setups. It's the newest application of squirt-gun technology I'm looking at what looks like a hand-pump, and a trigger thing, a-la supersoaker. Baaahaha.


Back to reality, how many people run air/water ICs on their car? What'd you do for cooling down the water? How hard would it be to just shoe-horn a smaller radiator in front of the actual one (like one from a VW or something like that, just a random guess)?

-Jesse

[123bobby123]

Hi,

My friend has a modded A4, that is very nice, and is very into Audi tuning and he told me about this site were the audi tuning company has develop a iquid to air intercooler for their shop car and is making a system for street cars.

http://www.awe-tuning.com/pages/shar...20intercoolers

Almost all of what the audi website says has been mentioned here in this thread, but I hope this helps.

Bill

[2gdsm_nc]

Originally posted by VRC Racing
Here are a couple of pics of my Air/Water setup.

http://users.erols.com/rcoxe/images/...d/DCP_0538.JPG
http://www.ddsm.org/vrcracing/images...d/DCP_0686.JPG
http://www.ddsm.org/vrcracing/images...d/DCP_0696.JPG

I use a 3 gal fuel cell for the ice/water mixture. I charge the system with 5 lbs of ice and about a quart of water for every quarter mile pass.
Most all of the ice is gone after the run. I would not recommend this kind of setup on a street car. Works well at the strip PITA on the street.

Russ Coxe
VRC Racing
www.vrcracing.com

just looked at your sight awsome isall i have to say. hell of a job on the eclipse. yes that is envy you hear.
like the seat in this pic
http://www.ddsm.org/vrcracing/images...d/DCP_0673.JPG
just kidding, who did you purchase the front clip from? thanks sorry i didnt mean to hijack.

[justa4cyl]

Originally posted by 123bobby123
Hi,

My friend has a modded A4, that is very nice, and is very into Audi tuning and he told me about this site were the audi tuning company has develop a iquid to air intercooler for their shop car and is making a system for street cars.

http://www.awe-tuning.com/pages/shar...20intercoolers

Almost all of what the audi website says has been mentioned here in this thread, but I hope this helps.

Bill

That is actually pretty funny that you mention AWE because I'm the guy that originally started this thread and the guy building my AIR to WATER I/C is my brother who works at AWE and makes parts for them. AND as for RUSS COXE that is a bad Ass set up you got there hopefully mine will look half as good as that. Ill keep you updated when its all done and post pics.

[93TSIAWD]

Awhile back I saw in the dsmtuners gallery, someone with a air/water fmic. I belive it was in a 1g and the shape of the fmic was a cylinder shape. Does anyone have pics of that or another car with the same set-up. Where can I buy one. I have searched, but not finding my answers. thanks

[candela]

all custom baby...

[93TSIAWD]

ok, but there was a company who made the actual intercooler. Do you have that company?

[sergiosdsm]

would the air to water intercooler setup be good for a car that is driven daily, since i dont plan on making my car a drag car anytime soon

[QuickerDSM]

I'm going to build my own liquid/air intercooler. It looks as though a stock smic would work perfect. One thing to keep in mind is that the charged air side, and ambient sides are reversed when converting a air/air core to a liquid/air core. This means that the pressure side becomes the liquid carrier and the ambient side becsomes the pressure side. This, in turn, should mean much less pressure drop through the core. I plan to run a marine bilge pump for the water circulation, along with a auto trans. cooler for the heat exchanger to cool the water.

Overall this should prove to be a cheap/easy alternative to an expensive fmic IMHO.

Mike

[weapon_x]

The gains of an air-to-liquid intercooler on the street are slim to none. In most cases this type is used only for drag, marine, or space-limited situations. The liquid cooling it is the biggest problem. You can't just tap off of your existing cooling system because it operates at roughly 195 degrees F on a stock thermostat, and the ethyl glycol in coolant doesn't transfer heat well at all. This means that water is your only option, but this presents another problem. If a reservoir is placed under the hood it will heat the water thus losing some of it's cooling properties. Also, in order to pump the water you will need to run a 12V pump comstantly to move the water, and unless you drop some dimes on an expensive pump you will be replacing it often because most are not designed for that type of use. The size of reservoir is also important so that you don't run out of water and have a catastrophic, high-boost related failure. The gains from an air-to-liquid are huge (as in fourteenfold) over an air-to-air, but I don't think it is something that can be used constantly on a daily driver.

[TwoLiterV8Eater]

A friend of mine has a pretty nice setup in his civic. A typical air/air intercooler up front, and then an air/water right before the throttle body. its a pretty small air/water intercooler, but he has fuel cell in the back that he fills with icewater at the track. On the street he just leaves it dry. He also has another piece of upper IC pipe that he can replace the air/water cooler with. He said that it helps spool time slightly on the street, but not that much so he leaves the IC in there for the most part.

He has noticed quite a drop in ET and MPH when not using the icewater at the track. He seems to run on average 12.4@118 with the icewater, and even at the same boost level it was around 12.7@114 without the ice, which is about where he is at lower boost.

I have thought about doing someithing like this on my car, but my FMIC is considerably larger than his so I dont think it will make as much of an improvement on my car.

[2gdsm_nc]

there is a pretty cheap pump that flows alot of water that is made to run all the time. an aeration pump for fish tanks. just find one large enough. look at the fishing section in a boat store they have the big ones that flow up to 500 gph on 12v i would place links to some but they wont last in here no links allowed and all. ive found some for around 13$ and rv supply stores have them also for around 20

[QuickerDSM]

Originally posted by weapon_x
The gains of an air-to-liquid intercooler on the street are slim to none. In most cases this type is used only for drag, marine, or space-limited situations. The liquid cooling it is the biggest problem. You can't just tap off of your existing cooling system because it operates at roughly 195 degrees F on a stock thermostat, and the ethyl glycol in coolant doesn't transfer heat well at all. This means that water is your only option, but this presents another problem. If a reservoir is placed under the hood it will heat the water thus losing some of it's cooling properties. Also, in order to pump the water you will need to run a 12V pump comstantly to move the water, and unless you drop some dimes on an expensive pump you will be replacing it often because most are not designed for that type of use. The size of reservoir is also important so that you don't run out of water and have a catastrophic, high-boost related failure. The gains from an air-to-liquid are huge (as in fourteenfold) over an air-to-air, but I don't think it is something that can be used constantly on a daily driver.

Couple things;

First, a liquid/air intercooling system has NOTHING to do with the cooling system of your engine. It is completely seperate and isolated.

Second, a properly designed air/liquid intercooling system is only slightly less efficient under normal street conditions than a air/air unit. Plus, the liquid/air unit has the ability to add ice to the cooling medium making it more efficient than any air/air core on the market.

Third, I don't know of ANY water pump that is not designed to work under constant running conditions. Fish pumps, bilge pumps, electric water pumps, ALL work non-stop for thousands of hours of use. It doesn't even need to flow that much.

Fourth, where would the water go for the resovoir to run dry? It is completely sealed and is being recirculated. It will never run dry unless it developes a leak somewhere.

I don't know where you got your information about liquid/air cores, but you were highly mis-informed. Hope I cleard up any mis-conceptions about them.

Mike

[weapon_x]

Originally posted by QuickerDSM




I don't know where you got your information about liquid/air cores, but you were highly mis-informed. Hope I cleard up any mis-conceptions about them.

Mike

The book "Maximum Boost", written by Corky Bell (a noted builder of all things turbo), brings up some good points against air-to-liquid on the street. I'm not flat out knocking this set up, it has the ability to make power. I just believe that unless it is set up simply and efficiently it won't be much of a sweet deal. I know the cooling system is seperate from the intercooling system, it just seems as though some where talking in the direction of using that as water supply. Sorry if I misunderstood. My concern of the loss of fluid comes from evaporation, but under more thought I don't believe that hot air leaving the compressor housing would be hot enough to turn all the liquid to vapor. As for the pump, fish tank pumps are 110v and are DESIGNED for constant use. Bilge pumps and aftermarket electric water pumps are ideal, but cost $$$ and are sometimes bulky. Water will always transfer heat better than air over aluminium, ice would be even better. If you really want to make power, a "one shot" intercooler added to an existing air-to-air setup would be simpler and net better short term results. An aluminum box sealed over the UIC filled with ice, ice water, or, more preferably, dry ice should make from some pretty impressive gains, although they may be short lived depending on ambient air, underhood temps etc. Regardless, I'm not slamming the idea, I just don't prefer it. Happy engineering.

[QuickerDSM]

Originally posted by weapon_x

The book "Maximum Boost", written by Corky Bell (a noted builder of all things turbo), brings up some good points against air-to-liquid on the street.

Ah, the bible of all turbo books. Although he brings good merit with most topics, I believe some of his information is a little dated and others a bit biased, but this is just my oppinion. For the most part, the book brings good reading.

Originally posted by weapon_x

I'm not flat out knocking this set up, it has the ability to make power.

Originally posted by weapon_x
The gains of an air-to-liquid intercooler on the street are slim to none.

Sounds to me like you are saying two different things here? I think your mis-conception (as well as Mr. Bells) is that the liquid/air unit has no merit on a street car. This, in my opinion, is incorrect. I've seen these work on the street just fine with Vorech blown LT1's producing in excess of 650rwhp. I've also seen back to back comparisons between front mounts, and liquid/air intercoolers without ice. Granted, the air/air will be more efficient on a day-to-day basis, but it is a much smaller margin than most people think. As with anything, it's difficult to compare one to the other directly due to design and engineering aspects of each. I just think that Mr. Bell threw a bad twist on the subject of liquid/air intercoolers and because of this, people tend to automatically believe it.

Mike

[weapon_x]

If you read the quotes that you have taken from my earlier posts you will see that I am not saying two different things. Yes, an air-to-liquid set up has the ability to make more power than air-to-air, 14X as much to be precise. This is because water will always transfer heat better than air, especially over a substance like aluminum. I just don't see a noticeable gain on a STREET set up. With every day driving and stop light blasts I can just see the performance margin slipping away to nothing. I believe that heat soak would also be a problem because you have no way to keep the water cool enough to attain the same power gain consistently. Now, pressurizing the system may help, but I don't know how much. Now on the STRIP with a controled environment air-to-liquid would prove superior. There are several pro cars that prove this point. Almost all cars, including a blown LT1, that use air-to-liquid do it because of space constraints, blower design, or just to not have a visible FMIC to attain a "sleeper" look. Any intercooler is better than no intercooler. Plus, there are supercharger systems out there without IC's that can still put down that much power on an LT1. I'm just trying to make a point, but since I have never built such a system a may not be of much help. My brain might just be running amock. Yeah, I feel a headache comin' on.

[ProStreetOnline]

One of our customers has a air to water intercooler. Here's a pic:



We'll have dyno numbers/timeslips soon.

[QuickerDSM]

Originally posted by weapon_x
Almost all cars, including a blown LT1, that use air-to-liquid do it because of space constraints, blower design, or just to not have a visible FMIC to attain a "sleeper" look. Any intercooler is better than no intercooler. Plus, there are supercharger systems out there without IC's that can still put down that much power on an LT1. I'm just trying to make a point, but since I have never built such a system a may not be of much help.

In the past, they were used mostly for space restraints, but recently they have been used more widely for daily driven applications, with great succes I might add. I was trying to make the point that the water pumps can, and do, live on the street on daily driven cars. It's really not much of a concern unless you tune for the ragged edge on the street. I know I don't, just for the possibility of getting some bad gas.

Originally posted by weapon_x
I believe that heat soak would also be a problem because you have no way to keep the water cool enough to attain the same power gain consistently. Now, pressurizing the system may help, but I don't know how much.

Actually there is a way to control heat soak, it's called a heat exchanger. It's basically a small radiator for the circulating water that is mounted up front somewhere. An auto tranny cooler is typically used for this and does a fine job of keeping things cool. You must remember that the water is going to be cooled by the intake air running through the core when the turbo is off boost. So in a sense, the water is being cooled twice in non-boost cruise mode (at least 50% of the time on the street).

Well, I think we've beat this to death and at least we can agree to dis-agree.

Mike

[ItsStockOfficer]

Its funny this comes up. Im actually going to be marketing a A/W IC kit. I like this idea because its stealth. You can quite easily make a a/w kit that looks stock and handles 500 hp. That benefit alone is worth it to many people

Sean

[talonted_one]

if you want stealth do what i do and paint your FMIC black.

as far as making 500 hp with the aid of an air:water IC i would like to see how long the the benefits of the setup will last on a street car