IC's...Air/Air or Air/Water? [Merged 7-7] intercooler liquid

[SOURCE1064]

Has anyone used one of these on their street driven DSM? What noticeable difference have you seen and what are the benefits from a air to liquid intercooler? What size one did you get and where from? The two other GSX's at the shop I take my car to are running medium sized ones in addition to their front mounts but I don't think they are going to use their cars as daily drivers.

[25psi]

I don't think you really need and air-water IC if you already have a nice air-air FMIC. Air-water are pretty much for the strip only, from what I've heard they heat soak VERY easily. BTW in the engine pics why did he mount it near his engine, that's like te worst place for an intercooler especially without a hood scoop.

[SOURCE1064]

That's the only place the air to liquid Spearco unit could fit. He's also running a Spearco 2-216 race intercooler. I've seen quite a few DSM's that use them install them in that area. I am just trying to cool my car as much as possible. So far I have my greddy large fmic, aquamist water injection, and the NX nter cooler chiller.

[larryd]

If you wanna waste more $$ get rid of the Greddy Large FMIC for a Spearco core

[greyforestgst]

Originally posted by 25psi
BTW in the engine pics why did he mount it near his engine, that's like te worst place for an intercooler especially without a hood scoop.

do you know how a water/air works?

the only thing that needs to catch air is the heat exchanger for the liquid, which is out of view.

thats a pretty badass setup if you ask me. yeah, theyre suited mainly for the track, but they imo fit a lot better. instead of running your entire intake past the front bumper you can just route two little radiator hoses.

[RS entities]

does anyone have a link for somewhere that sells those, any ideas on price??
thanks

[25psi]

Originally posted by greyforestgst


do you know how a water/air works?

the only thing that needs to catch air is the heat exchanger for the liquid, which is out of view.

thats a pretty badass setup if you ask me. yeah, theyre suited mainly for the track, but they imo fit a lot better. instead of running your entire intake past the front bumper you can just route two little radiator hoses.

Oh ok I didn't know there was a heat exganger I thought it worked like an air/air IC

[RabidDonkeyBoy]

Originally posted by greyforestgst
yeah, theyre suited mainly for the track

if thats the case then why did GM put a AIR->Water IC on the Syclone/Typhoon? they were by no means built as drag trucks...

the only reason why most people consider them strip only is. when people see them on a drag car theres no external heat exchanger and the team that races it fills the reservoir with fresh ICE before every pass.

hook up the proper equipment and a air-water IC and depending on what coolant you use for heat exchange. water can absorb 4X the amount of heat air will so you only need 1/4 if IC to get the job done.

and the spot that picture has it is the BEST spot it allows for the least amount of Intercooler tubing. although i would have had the outlet worked so there wasn't that 90' bend coupler.

i'm working on building an Air-Water for my DSM in the next few weeks.

p.s. what kind of manifold is that person running? i've never seen that cast manifold before..

[SOURCE1064]

I believe it's the one extreme motorsports sells, I'll ask him next time I drop by the shop.

[2-0turbo]

Originally posted by RabidDonkeyBoy
hook up the proper equipment and a air-water IC and depending on what coolant you use for heat exchange. water can absorb 4X the amount of heat air will so you only need 1/4 if IC to get the job done.

I too, will build one someday. I like to do track days and everyone who puts a FMIC on a track car eventually overheats. So, I want to do the air/water and put the heat exchanger out of the way or use a thin radiator, much like the AC condenser.

Remember, you are correct that Cp of water is 4X of air. But, realizing mass transfer, your overall heat transfer rate is even better than 4X. More on the order of 12-15 because water is so dense and has such a tremendous capacity for absorbing heat.

[KGB Pilot125]

BUT once you stop moving or turn the car off you will heat soak all the water in the system. I know because I have a syclone and a typhoon. the syclone has a water temp gauge for the IC system, when I am driving around IC temps are about 40-50 degrees when i get into boost for 1/4 mile or more they climb to about 90-100 then cool right back down when I get out of it. (these are on days that the outside temp is like 40 at the most.) but when I park and come back a little while later like 30 min or so the ic temps are about 130 or so due to the water absorbing the heat off the turbo and motor. the turbo in a sy/ty is right under the ic, I realize a dsm is different. for tracks days you should be fine with a air/water setup and you can always add another water container to hold ice water or something.

[JayHass]

#1 The SyTy uses air/water because of packaging reasons. Plain and simple. Same reason Vortech puts an Air/water IC with most of their supercharger kits.

#2 In engineering there is a principle called TANSTAAFL. What's it stand for? There Aint No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. In other words, you are not getting something for nothing. Water may absorb more heat than air, but that heat ultimately has to be transfered from the water to air via another water/air heat exchanger. Because of this Air/Water IC's that use ambient air to cool the water are less efficient than a good front mount.

The appealing part of the Air/Water is you can put an ice water resevoir with a pump and actually chill the intake charge below ambient temps. Racers like it because you can tune to a consisten intake charge temp and not be as dependant on the weather.

[Quiz]

Insane147,

Any updates. Have you installed and been able to log intake temp's with the A/W?

[TheObiJuan]

gmc syclones and typhoons use a garret w/a intercooler.
it is a pain in the ass.
modified, the entire system has gone 10's wich is fast for those little trucks.

many in the syty crowd go to a2a because of the simplicity and weight loss.
take into cosideration the weight of the water, the pump, the cche (heat exchanger), the water lines, & the intercooler.

if you want to learn more about these and real life experiences go to syty.net and search.

[jdk906s]

Wouldn't water injection (one port at the IC and one just before the throttle body) be just as useful as the whole water/air IC? It's a lot cheaper and well proven route.

[TheObiJuan]

no. water injection injects water directly into the air stream whereas the water/air intercooler is a radiator essentially for the air. a reverse radiator actually. (water cools air vs air cooling water)

water/alcohol injection works great in conjuction with water/air intercoolers though.

[jdk906s]

Originally posted by TheObiJuan
no. water injection injects water directly into the air stream whereas the water/air intercooler is a radiator essentially for the air. a reverse radiator actually. (water cools air vs air cooling water)

water/alcohol injection works great in conjuction with water/air intercoolers though.

Actually, I was refering to it being useful to achieve the same results, not doing the same thing.

The water being sprayed into the intercooler air stream will assist in cooling the air as it is made more dense - offsetting some of the intake temp hike created by higher pressure of forced induction. You'll want the air as dense as possible, but still keeping the temp in check. This is similar to the effect a more efficient intercooler would have.

The water injected at the throttle body will drastically reduce combustion chamber temps allowing for increased boost or timing advance. Something an intercooler can't do directly very well.

[Defiant]

I'd like to go to an A/L IC, hook it up with a circulator, something like an oil radiator in the old sidemount location, and a thermostat fan. I'd imagine you'd get fairly good flow with a thermosiphon (seemed to work okay on the Model T), but where's the complication in that?

[JayHass]

Originally posted by Defiant
I'd like to go to an A/L IC, hook it up with a circulator, something like an oil radiator in the old sidemount location, and a thermostat fan. I'd imagine you'd get fairly good flow with a thermosiphon (seemed to work okay on the Model T), but where's the complication in that?

Keep in mind you will need more surface area for the heat exhanger than an IC to pull the heat out of the water. A little oil cooler job WILL NOT do it. Think Civic DX radiator size.

[P8ntBalla]

Originally posted by RabidDonkeyBoy
p.s. what kind of manifold is that person running? i've never seen that cast manifold before..

i believe it is a manifold for a t4(t61, t66, etc) setup. not sure though.

[DrZiplok]

Originally posted by JayHass


Keep in mind you will need more surface area for the heat exhanger than an IC to pull the heat out of the water. A little oil cooler job WILL NOT do it. Think Civic DX radiator size.

I also note that Spearco make a point of noting that the oil coolers have the wrong geometry etc. for cooling water. I've been doing some research recently since this idea's appealing to me as well.

The smaller of the PWR units (linear blow-through, 4" dia 6" core length) is actually looking pretty tempting, but finding a suitable radiator does seem to be an interesting challenge. I'm sure that IRC or someone similar could cook up a low-profile radiator that would live in a location similar to an FMIC, the real questions would be cost and pressurisation (since there's no way to set up a filler cap that low in the system, burping it might be a challenge).

Ken, if you're reading this, any thoughts?

[Defiant]

Originally posted by JayHass


Keep in mind you will need more surface area for the heat exhanger than an IC to pull the heat out of the water. A little oil cooler job WILL NOT do it. Think Civic DX radiator size.

Hmm. Perplexing. Also, frustrating- any heat you have to get rid of in an engine is energy being wasted. It's the 21st century, aren't we suposed to be using ceramic pistons by now?

[justa4cyl]

I have a supra MKIV side mount sitting around my house. So my brother picks it up the other day and says lets make an air to water i/c for you talon. He's made them for S4's before and other german cars but i've never seen one on a DSM. He's working on it right now and is not done yet. I understand that they are good b/c they work even when your not moving. I am a little sceptical and was wondering what your take on the subjedt was or if anyone's ver seen one on a DSM.

[Defiant]

I thought it sounded good too, but once you cool the intercooler, you gotta cool the exchanger water. Where you gonna put that heat exchanger, and how're you gonna move the fluid? It got really ugly, really fast.
Just air through the Supra IC is supposed to be a big enough improvement to save the hassle. You might be better-off looking into water or propane injection.

[candela]

My take: They work much more efficiently in many more applications than any air/air intercooler. IMO, to make one work decently youll need a pretty big fuggin cooler...###### something in equivalency in size to 2 times as thick as the raciator with about the same L and W... Thre are lots of different setups you could go with though. Ask 90gsx, he has been working on one for a while now I beleive.

[DV8tion]

I think that would work great. I looked at the same thing, but I could not think if a reliable way to seal the water side b/c the supra ic. has plastic tanks. I dont see any reason to run a heat exchanger unless it is an auto-Xer. Are you going to keep you air to air? I would. I would just have an Ice water tank with a pump. You only need to keep ice in it when you have the boost turned way up. The best thing about an air to water is that you can overrun the hell out of your turbo and still have cool air charge temps.

[candela]

From every settup Ive seen with air/water coolers heat exchangers work the best for street cars. Its different for a drag car yes, but an autocross car is basically a street car in that its not a simple one pass-stop type thing. I was definetly disproven by how efficient they are by a friend a while ago (by real world cars) and have since really been a fan.

[justa4cyl]

He says he will be using a heat exchanger and were going to put my battery in my trunk so i can make a big resivior for the water/ice and i dont think the intercooler has to be that fuggin huge because dosnt buschurs 2nd gen talon use an air to water thats only like 12"/12" hopefully it'l be done before the June 14th DSM meet at englishtown so I can show it off. Thanks for the replies and the boost of confidence

[kc92awd]

Hey, I have a 1990 Lotus Esprit with a factory liquid to air intercooler. First of all, it works far better than air to air. If you can do it, go for it. Also, you will not need a huge intercooler. Liquid to air intercoolers are much smaller than air to air. A liquid to air the size of a shoe box will cool A LOT!

The main problem is you will need a way to cool the liquid after it is pumped through the intercooler, otherwise it's worthless. In my case, it is a second radiator behind the main one. The way I would go about it would be to find an aftermarked radiator that is thinner but cools as well as stock, that way you will have enough room to stack them. You will need hoses and preferably and electric pump to move the liquid through the radiator and back to the intercooler.

Idealy, you will have a seperate resovior you can fill with ice water to use at the track, and you can switch between your main fluid and the ice water tank. Then you can fill the resovoir with ice water before a drag race, but keep your regular liquid cycling on the street. Good luck.

[Adrenaline]

H2O Racing Technology

I think you might be interested in looking into this companies products. I purchased one of there kits, the Insane Cooling kit, and it has made a huge difference in my cars performance! I am pushing some serious boost. I was previously at 300hp and now its closer to 350hp. Basically, these units cool the air traveling through my SMIC, RAM air and radiator by as much as 15 degrees. Thus decreasing the cars ECU readings and incresing the boost. The company is called H2O Racing Technology and from what I understand is that there a team of engineers who came together to create this company, specializing in aftermarket high performance equipment for sport compact cars. I have spent over $7,ooo on my car and aside from my Supersequential Bolow Off Valve, this is the most effective product I've bought so far. And the price is actually very reasonable. Well, hope this helps let me know what you think. Good luck