IC's...Air/Air or Air/Water? [Merged 7-7] intercooler liquid

[Steve93Talon]

Originally Posted by JamiesTSI

Just something I thought I would do to help pass the winter months. Plan on using a stock side mount with the end tanks cut off and new tanks tigged back on with 3 inch inlet and outlet. With 3/4 NPT bungs for water in and water out.

I wouldn't recommend using a stock IC core. Sure, you could cool it alot more efficiently, but you'd still be limited by a pretty low CFM limit. If you're really set on doing it this way, the only way I'd do it is reversing the core. Make the part where the ambient air used to pass the charge air side. Then it would flow alot more. This is still far from ideal considering the fabrication work involved, when you can get a good water/air core that's efficient to 500hp for less than a typical air/air. We picked up a 1200CFM core/tanks, pump, and 5 gal. cell used for $700. There are always used setups on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/TURBO...QQcmdZViewItem

Originally Posted by JamiesTSI

Not sure on the pump yet. Any ideas? Jegs sells a nice one for $175.00. I'm trying to keep this project at a budget price.

For a pump, you want something that will flow about 4-6GPM, 12v, designed for constant duty, and that will run dry and self-prime - and is designed for WATER. The stock Ford Lightning IC pump has been used successfully by people and can be found for like $100.

Originally Posted by JamiesTSI

Thought about useing a Starion intercooler for a heat exchanger. Cut the inlet and outlet of the intercooler then tig some 3/4 NPT bungs on. Will this due as a heat exchanger?

Ideally, you want an exchanger that's designed to cool water. A small car radiator like from a Civic, Festiva, Metro... would be great. We're using a Honda Goldwing radiator that we found on ebay for $30, and it works very well.

Originally Posted by JamiesTSI

Anybody know if you absolutly need a reserve tank? I'm thinking if the heat exchanger is big enough to cool the water down that the reserve tank will not be needed.

For the street, this isn't an option. The water capacity is what allows you to maintain low charge temps. Otherwise, as soon as the water does one pass, it would be hot. You can get a 4-5 gallon fuel cell for like $80-120.

Originally Posted by JamiesTSI

PLEASE no posts about how A/W intercoolers are only used on drag cars only. Lets try to keep this thread on the parts and how each one works with the other.

Far from it, if done right, they'll cool at least as well as a big air/air on the street. Then you go to the track, throw ice in the tank, and watch the charge temps go below ambient. On a 90 degree day, we saw charge temps between 95 and 110 degrees after repeated pulls. The water in the reservoir never got over 95F. With ice in the tank on the same day, charge temps were as low as 63F! Needless to say, you'll have to compensate with some extra fuel because of the colder, denser charge. It's a fun project, which will produce very rewarding results if done correctly. Good luck and post updates.

Pics: http://homepage.mac.com/stevestrzemp...toAlbum19.html

[GVR4592]

I know some people have used a pump from the Ford Lightning. One nice thing about a reservoir is that you can easily put ice in it at the track.

These guys have the Lightning pump for around $150
http://www.madenterprise.com/F150.htm

You might be able to find it cheaper if you could find a used one.

[JamiesTSI]

Any ideas on the calculations to figure CFM?

Currently looking into the Lighting water pump, was 2003 the only year that had them?

Should the postion of the pump be down bythe heat exchanger. I've read that pumps push better then they pull.

[napkinthief]

what about putting the whole intercooler inside a container, then useing a pump to flow the water from and to the container, therfore, you make sure of the whole intercooler core, dunno what to do about the street as this would overheat, but i think you get my point

[Steve93Talon]

Originally Posted by JamiesTSI

Any ideas on the calculations to figure CFM?

Currently looking into the Lighting water pump, was 2003 the only year that had them?

Should the postion of the pump be down bythe heat exchanger. I've read that pumps push better then they pull.

Here are some Spearco CFM numbers:

http://www.turboneticsinc.com/ic_liquidtoair.htm

I'm not sure which years the lightning used a water/air IC. You can also use a Jabsco Water Puppy pump.

We run the pump right at the tank outlet, "pushing" I guess. The diagram on the Sperco link shows it after the exchanger. I really don't think it makes too much difference.

[tbird]

Anyone ever use a syclone or typhoon intercooler. on their dsm.. I am putting together a track only car and sorta doing it with a budget.. On my typhoon it worked exellent, But I am not sure of the cfm of it.....

[LA97GST]

If you are set on using it then use it. It will work. I would buy a cheap cheap universal FMIC off ebay and fab piping. Can be done for dirt cheap.

[Quasimondo]

Depends on what size turbo you're using with it. The stock Sy/Ty TD06-18G was good up to 550 cfm, so you gotta figure that it should run fine up to that point and maybe a few cfm over.

[Steve93Talon]

I'm in the process of setting one up in the stock SMIC location. Based on the cross-sectional size, it'll flow alot more than 550cfm. How much flow it will cool effectively is another story. It will serve my needs perfectly though. I'll try to get some pics of it mounted up tomorrow. For now, here's one of my original mock-up before I decided on the fenderwell:

http://homepage.mac.com/stevestrzemp...0/P2070002.JPG

[tbird]

Steve Looks good... Can I ask what turbo you will be running and what kinda boost?????? I figure with ice water in a 3-5 gal tank it should cool really well... I was also debating on where to mount it cause if I decide t use a blow thru maf... problyn ot but who knows.... I would want to mount it after the IC

[Steve93Talon]

For now I'll be on the 14b, trying to put it into the 11s stock appearing. Hence the main reason to mount it in the stock SMIC spot. If not for that consideration, I'd probably just do it like in that pic to save IC piping. You wouldn't be able to do blow-thru that way easily though, but I prefer draw-thru myself anyway. You get much more accurate air metering. I'm heading out to the garage now, I'll be sure to snap some shots of the IC mounted in the fender.

[Steve93Talon]

I'm almost done, hoses are run, pump is ready to be mounted, just need to make a bracket to mount the heat exchanger and then wait for the tank to arrive:

pics: http://homepage.mac.com/stevestrzempek/album.html

[2DaTrakNow]

Is an air to water intercooler better or worse than air to air???? i seen this one on ebay(link below), and was curious what the advantages are??

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PWR-I...QQcmdZViewItem

[Marc91GSX]

Originally Posted by 2DaTrakNow

Is an air to water intercooler better or worse than air to air???? i seen this one on ebay(link below), and was curious what the advantages are??

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PWR-I...QQcmdZViewItem

It is debateable as to which is better for the track, but for a street friven car using a water to air is not the best idea. The only way to cool the air entering the vehicle is through water which will eventually heat up and no matter how big your reservoir is you will eventually heat all of the water in there while driving on the street. At the track they are great because you can fill the tank with ice water before each run, but on the street you do not have that option.

[luvmygst]

Originally Posted by Marc91GSX

It is debateable as to which is better for the track, but for a street friven car using a water to air is not the best idea. The only way to cool the air entering the vehicle is through water which will eventually heat up and no matter how big your reservoir is you will eventually heat all of the water in there while driving on the street. At the track they are great because you can fill the tank with ice water before each run, but on the street you do not have that option.

You have to have a heat exchanger (radiator) for a air/water setup. When done properly this is one of the best ways of intercooling. Its a very difficukt setup to get corretc for the track and street though. The 03-04 mustang cobra, and the supercharged lightnings run an air/water setup from the factory.

[Marc91GSX]

Originally Posted by luvmygst

You have to have a heat exchanger (radiator) for a air/water setup. When done properly this is one of the best ways of intercooling. Its a very difficukt setup to get corretc for the track and street though. The 03-04 mustang cobra, and the supercharged lightnings run an air/water setup from the factory.

The main reason why the SVT's come with the water to air intercooler is because of the setup. The type of super charger that is used in those vehicles makes it virtually impossible to use an air to air cooler.

The downside to the use of the water to air in a street driven vehicle is the fact that it will require still another heat exchanger for the water that is the heat exchanger for the air. While I agree that this setup is one of the more efficient for track use(drag racing) it is not very practical for a street driven car. Of course this is just my opinion on this but my opinion is based on this information. If you use the engine's coolant to supply the coolant for the water/air ic then at best you will drop the air charge temp to the same temp as the coolant which is at best 160 degrees at op temp. If you decide to use a different source for the coolant then you are required to run a seperate heat exchanger for the coolant. If you are going to need a seperate heat exchanger for the heat exchanger you are trying to utilize then what is the point?

[luvmygst]

The best way to run this is with its own dedicated cooling system. With the right setup done you get a gain in effeciency, and the ability to get air temps below ambient air(by adding ice to the resivoir). This has been debateed forever, both setups have advantages, bot setups work really well done correctly, howerve air/water is far more complicated. It is a whole lot easier to add a air/air core without all tha hassle. Would you see a gain going to the air/water? Mabey at the track with ice, try it and see.

[2DaTrakNow]

Alright, i understand alittle better now. Thanks for all of the advice, and i think since i want a street car to bring to the track every now and then, im gonna go with the air to air.

[thekidadrock]

I am currently building up my 1G dsm and am looking for some input on a new/different intercooler setup I am thinking of running. I bought a small air-to-water intercooler, roughly the same size as the stock side mount one. I also purchased a small 18x9x1 radiator, an external water neck, small motorcycle overflow tank, and an electric water pump. I plan on using the new air-to-water intercooler in the stock side mount location. I am going to mount the small radiator, to cool the system, in front of the stock radiator in the front of the car. The water pump, overflow tank, and water neck will be mounted somewhere in the engine bay. From the research I have done, it seems as though water transfers heat 4x better than air. I know that many vortech superchargers use a air-to-water setup for their intercoolers and that lotus, bently, and gmc typhoons/cyclones also use this type of setup for their turbocharged cars. Does anyone know of, or has used this setup and can anyone give me any input about my plan? Will it work? Will it cool the intake charge more/less than a FMIC? Other than cost and pressure drop what are the pros/cons of this setup? Any and all input would be greatly appreciated.

[GVR4592]

To make it work properly on a street car you would need a very large heat exchanger. Your 18x9x1 is probably going to be to small. The problem is cooling the water once it heats up, small heat exchangers don't do it very well. That's why you don't see air to water intercoolers on street cars. The Syclone/Typhoon guys swap to air to air once they start making big power.

Since you already have it all, install it and see how it works. Maybe get an air temp gauge and install the sender right before the throttle body and let us know how it works.

[thekidadrock]

Thank you for your advice, it is greatly appreciated. I'm going to set it up and see how it works, I'll let you know.

[boostedinaz]

They work great for a limited amount of time. Once the water in the system has been heated to the ambient temp you are right back to a normal air-to-air intercooler because of your heat exchanger. You can get the same results with an intercooler sprayer, but with out all the complication and it would last longer between uses.

[TSIMonsteR]

seems like an interesting idea, but a complicated one.... I plan to just rig up a Co2 sprayer for my smic

[josherino]

I have seriously considered getting an air to water intercooler, but I want to get some feedback first. My reasons for getting an air to water is that there is a lot shorter piping than air to air. Also, I have heard that they cool the air more than an air to air. And they sit in the engine bay, so it is more sleeper and less prone to damage. What surprises me is that there are not a lot of companies that make them and I see air to air used way more. I really would like to hear opinions from owners of both air to air and air to water intercoolers. Please be insightful.
thanks

[tstkl]

you do realize that the operating temp of a dsm (well a 1g at least) is 190 degrees, and so the water gets that hot, then has to be cooled down by.... THE RADIATOR!!! The radiator cannot cool the water to below ambient temperatures, (its physically impossible, don't even try and disagree with me.) and more than likely won't, so your cooling your intake charge with, at best, a little bit warmer than ambient air temperatures. The water to air intercooler will, AT BEST cool the intake charge to that little bit warmer than ambient air temperatures, but again, will most likely fail in its attempts. In this case, there are two things that need to be 100% efficient to work as well as a 100% efficient intercooler. Lets say your radiator is 90% efficient and your water to air intercooler is the same. Its 80 degrees outside and your car is running at 190 degrees. The difference between 190 and 80 is 110, and 90% of that is 99 degrees, so the water gets to 91 degrees. A turbocharger can produce anywhere from 200-300 degree air, so for your sake lets say its producing 200. the difference between 99 degrees and 200 is 101. 90% of that is 90.9, so the intake charge gets cooled to 109.1 degrees. Now lets say you have a 90% efficient intercooler, its 80 degrees outside, and your turbocharger is producing 200 degree air. The difference is 120 and 90% of that is 108, so you get 92 degree intake charges. 109.1 is 17.1 degrees warmer. This is assuming that your radiator and water to air intercooler are as efficient as a huge intercooler. Most likely, the water to air intercooler won't be, so you will see even higher numbers. Also, for my sake, one calculation is easier than two. If you want short pipes, convert to an evo8 style turbocharger by relocating the alternator and getting an exhaust manifold spacer, along with all the other things you would need. Then your licp would be almost nothing, and you could party all day with a colder intake charge and fast spool time.


also, think about how you would have to get a water source and water return line, and it would have to be the first thing that water touched after the radiator. A water to air intercooler in the engine bay could also get heat soaked a lot easier, and it would have to be really small to fit in the engine bay, this will cause even more heatsoaking problems.


this is why you don't see any water to air intercoolers. Its pure physics, its less efficient.

[/this thread]

[boostedinaz]

This has been discussed many times but I am guess the search button is broken.

They will work awesome until the water in system starts to heat up. At that point the heat exchanger, radiator, will still only cool it to ambient temps. So for the first 5 minutes of driving you wil be the cool kid on the block, literally, then you will be just like everyone else.

This is why they are only used on race cars that see short bust of speed.

[Defiant]

Originally Posted by boostedinaz

This has been discussed many times but I am guess the search button is broken.

Ah, but the "closed" one isn't.
The upshot was that for the real world, a wet IC isn't worth what it takes.

[jo1]

I'm planning to change my intercooler setup to water to air intercooler. What i have in mind right now is spearco 2-230 or 2-231. Which of this intercooler should i use since i will running with 30-35psi of boost. Don't worry about my stock engine i done it before and i know it will stand the abuse. My turbo is SCM6152E but the hot side have been change to a/r .70 T4 P trim wheel. Do you think the 2-231 can support the flow of the turbo and not a bottleneck to my setup.

tq

[Quasimondo]

Spearco's website

From what it looks like, both intercoolers are rated for 1500 cfm. The only difference appears to be size, both measure 4.5" x 10.125" but the 230 is taller (9" vs 4.5"), so it looks like it depends on which will make a better fit under the hood.

[jo1]

Both will fit under the hood. My concern is about the flow. I now it from spearco website but from other site it state different figure.

http://www.racetep.com/tneticatolic.html

I don't know which one is right but look at the size maybe it can flow the same 2-230 what about the efficiency.

One of my friend running 2-230 with T67 getting 15-20 deg. calcius during full boost at 25-30psi. He is using jabsco pump (6gpm) and water reservior size of 2-4 gallon filling with ice to cool the water.

Is the water pump and size of water reservoir will help in the efficiency of the 2-231