That's what it is looking like. We were seeing performance gains on the three we tested what ranged from 16G-ish to a GT40R over the competitor's SMIM's tested.
Even on stock cams/cam gears and stock head.
____________________________
Tim Zimmer
2.3L, BW475, AEM, etc.
Well, it is pretty much a 3-man operation at FFWD. Darren, and Darren, and Darren. Oh wait, that's 1 person doing all the work...
Last time I spoke with him about the SMIM test, it seemed like he couldn't get his hands on most of the new version manifolds on the market for testing, let alone ones with the same TB flanging, etc. I think that he said he had tested some, but was hoping/waiting for more parts.
You can always send him an e-mail and see what's up, I think that he would likely tell you what's up.
____________________________
Tim Zimmer
2.3L, BW475, AEM, etc.
I do not know. Do you have flow bench data, comparison dyno data, etc to support it?
Extrude honed manifolds have done pretty well lately on Evo 8's because the R&D wasn't put into alot of the manifolds sold -- they were just copies of old DSM manifolds that were modified to fit the Evo 8 when it came out so people could make money. Lately, more companies are actually spending the R&D $$$ to make better manifolds for the Evo 8 setup. Wilson's V2 Extrude honed Evo 8 Intake Manifold is a nice piece. Unfortunately, it is not usable on our platforms, or engine layout.
The manifolds that the Beyond Redline Performance SMIM was tested against were current production SMIM's that are proven also -- they made good power in relation to the stock intake manifold on Car #1 and #2 in the past. The Beyond Redline SMIM put down very nice gains over the other SMIM's, and it made a serious improvement on my car. I think that my old SMIM just couldn't keep up on a 2.3L with the GT40R, and was choking itself. When we put on the Beyond Redline SMIM, I was completely shocked that we gained that MUCH HP!! I was hoping for 30-40AWHP over my old SMIM, and was not expecting 100+AWHP at the same boost levels and same ignition maps, while reducing fuel injector duty cycles, improving efficiency of my fuel maps -- heck, this manifold flowed ALOT MORE AIR than the old SMIM.
____________________________
Tim Zimmer
2.3L, BW475, AEM, etc.
Sooo yea some other people buy this thing quick! So um he will make more! and the price might drop a tad? Who knows if there still some around when I start my engine build which is a ways off since I am in Iraq then who knows.
Yea, it can go either way. If mass production starts then the price will most likely drop. Or it can go the way of Forrester - no more made and those who have one are very happy.
I like this one since I like unconventional parts in general that you don't see on hundreds of other cars. I have a question for you guys, how much do you think is lost in performance by not using a bigger throttle body? I feel that it is kinda a waste of money to get a SMIM flanged for a standard size t-body even though some folks have made really nice power with them. Another question, what is the plenum volume on this manifold or how does it compare to other known brands like Magnus/JM race? Do you have any pics of the inside of the plenum?
I have a question for you guys, how much do you think is lost in performance by not using a bigger throttle body? I feel that it is kinda a waste of money to get a SMIM flanged for a standard size t-body even though some folks have made really nice power with them. Another question, what is the plenum volume on this manifold or how does it compare to other known brands like Magnus/JM race? Do you have any pics of the inside of the plenum?
It all depends what your goals are and how big of a turbo you have to determine the size of a the throttle body and the plenum size you need.
Larger plenum and bigger throttle body is best used on a big turbo and a drag built engine like twicks69's car which gain 100hp+. However if you have a 16g a SMIM is the last thing you should be thinking about. A bigger plenum and throttle body hurts the spool rate. It's please self-explanatory in the first post of the dyno results.
And about your question in comparison with JM Fab and Magnus I doubt anybody know that. As mention in the posts above we are wait for FFWD test results.
I like this one since I like unconventional parts in general that you don't see on hundreds of other cars. I have a question for you guys, how much do you think is lost in performance by not using a bigger throttle body? I feel that it is kinda a waste of money to get a SMIM flanged for a standard size t-body even though some folks have made really nice power with them. Another question, what is the plenum volume on this manifold or how does it compare to other known brands like Magnus/JM race? Do you have any pics of the inside of the plenum?
Well, in the circumstance of using the Mitsubishi TB flange on this SMIM, it was designed this way so I could be used on the most 4G63's out there with minimal modification to be used. There really are not that many people using aftermarket throttle bodies on their current setups, and there are also very few people using 3" or larger IC pipes on their setups. Most of the intercooler pipe setups out there for the DSM's use a 2.25" or 2.5" IC pipe setup. This flange is ideal for most of the cars out there, along with their horsepower levels. A 52mm 2G throttle body is 2.0472", a 60mm 1G throttle body is 2.3622". An aftermarket 70mm TB is 2.7559", 75mm is 2.9528", and a Q45 TB 90mm is 3.5433".
In my circumstance, I am running 2.5" IC pipes from the turbo outlet to the FMIC, and the FMIC to the TB -- there is absolutely no need to run a 70mm+ TB -- could there be a gain? Sure. Could the larger TB increase throttle response? Sure. Could it also decrease spoolup? Of course. I have no need to run a Q45 throttle body. If anything I might see a few HP gain -- I am not expecting to see more than 15-20HP over my 1G 60mm TB though -- and I AM making nearly 1000HP.
I cannot give you a number on the plenum volume. I didn't build it -- if you want that question answered, talk to Luke at Beyond Redline.
As for more pics, here you go! I took an additional 16 photos showing the dimensions again, along with inside the plenum shots. Please understand that my manifold is USED, and just sucked up a turbo compressor wheel, so please understand that the stuff in my plenum, would not be found in your clean plenum (compressor wheel debris).
I did a quick 5-minute hand-polish on it also using Mother's Ultimate Billet aluminum polish and cleaned with a microfiber towel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1gDSM4g63
It all depends what your goals are and how big of a turbo you have to determine the size of a the throttle body and the plenum size you need.
Larger plenum and bigger throttle body is best used on a big turbo and a drag built engine like twicks69's car which gain 100hp+. However if you have a 16g a SMIM is the last thing you should be thinking about. A bigger plenum and throttle body hurts the spool rate. It's please self-explanatory in the first post of the dyno results.
And about your question in comparison with JM Fab and Magnus I doubt anybody know that. As mention in the posts above we are wait for FFWD test results.
As you can see from the dyno data taken on the first two test vehicles (Car #1 and Car #2), they were not losing spoolup whatsoever over the competitor's SMIM.
As for mine, we saw about a 200rpm loss, but we also had several other variables that we were dealing with -- such as the turbo. I also explained thoroughly the variables causing spoolup differences in the article == go back and read up if you missed it.
As for the large plenum design, we were able to prove that it was still beneficial on three different setups and displacements of 2.0 and 2.3L, with small to large turbos.
I would definitely say that the Beyond Redline SMIM made a strong difference over my old manifold due to the larger plenum and runner design. The 2.3L needs more air, and this manifold definitely produced it! Along with increasing my fuel injector efficiency.
Finally, you don't need an aftermarket fuel rail, ported head or an aftermarket throttle body to make 1000HP. The stock stuff works just fine. Can you make more power over the stock stuff? Sure, but at what cost? Some of the parts are extremely well designed on our motors, and only need a few tweeks to really put down some high HP numbers. Using a stock fuel rail with a -6AN feed and return and a set of 1000cc injectors along with a walboro 255HP in-tank and a walboro 255HP in-line fuel pump will support 1000HP all day long. The stock 1G head can flow it no problem also. I would say that gains are made though when changing over to oversize valves, and cams larger than 272/272's, but that gain was less than 30whp in the big picture.
The car made over 100AWHP more on just an intake manifold swap--that is a heck of alot better bang for the buck than purchasing an aftermarket throttle body along with 3"+ IC pipes, a ported head with oversize valves, and huge cams.
____________________________
Tim Zimmer
2.3L, BW475, AEM, etc.
As of right now, it uses only a Mitsu bolt-on flange. All three vehicles tested were using 1G unported Throttle Bodies.
The next run of them will come with an option more than likely. Luke is also in the process of designing a straight bolt-on mitsu-style throttle body (if I remember correctly, it was 75mm), which uses all the stock sensors and is much beefier than any other comparable TB on the market for our cars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twicks69
Well, in the circumstance of using the Mitsubishi TB flange on this SMIM, it was designed this way so I could be used on the most 4G63's out there with minimal modification to be used. There really are not that many people using aftermarket throttle bodies on their current setups, and there are also very few people using 3" or larger IC pipes on their setups. Most of the intercooler pipe setups out there for the DSM's use a 2.25" or 2.5" IC pipe setup. This flange is ideal for most of the cars out there, along with their horsepower levels. A 52mm 2G throttle body is 2.0472", a 60mm 1G throttle body is 2.3622". An aftermarket 70mm TB is 2.7559", 75mm is 2.9528", and a Q45 TB 90mm is 3.5433".
In my circumstance, I am running 2.5" IC pipes from the turbo outlet to the FMIC, and the FMIC to the TB -- there is absolutely no need to run a 70mm+ TB -- could there be a gain? Sure. Could the larger TB increase throttle response? Sure. Could it also decrease spoolup? Of course. I have no need to run a Q45 throttle body. If anything I might see a few HP gain -- I am not expecting to see more than 15-20HP over my 1G 60mm TB though -- and I AM making nearly 1000HP.
...
Finally, you don't need an aftermarket fuel rail, ported head or an aftermarket throttle body to make 1000HP. The stock stuff works just fine. Can you make more power over the stock stuff? Sure, but at what cost? Some of the parts are extremely well designed on our motors, and only need a few tweeks to really put down some high HP numbers. Using a stock fuel rail with a -6AN feed and return and a set of 1000cc injectors along with a walboro 255HP in-tank and a walboro 255HP in-line fuel pump will support 1000HP all day long. The stock 1G head can flow it no problem also. I would say that gains are made though when changing over to oversize valves, and cams larger than 272/272's, but that gain was less than 30whp in the big picture.
The car made over 100AWHP more on just an intake manifold swap--that is a heck of alot better bang for the buck than purchasing an aftermarket throttle body along with 3"+ IC pipes, a ported head with oversize valves, and huge cams.
Since we're crunching the numbers, why not aim for a happy medium regarding the TB? Use that 2.5" piping to its fullest (as if you're not already doing so). 60mm translates to 2.3622 inches. 2.5" translates to 63.5mm. Why not get the extra little chunk to work for you? Just a thought to put out there. IMHO, I would always like the diameter of my TB to match all of my intercooler piping.
I just see it as .1378 inches (or 3.5mm) being left out in the cold.
Since we're crunching the numbers, why not aim for a happy medium regarding the TB? Use that 2.5" piping to its fullest (as if you're not already doing so). 60mm translates to 2.3622 inches. 2.5" translates to 63.5mm. Why not get the extra little chunk to work for you? Just a thought to put out there. IMHO, I would always like the diameter of my TB to match all of my intercooler piping.
I just see it as .1378 inches (or 3.5mm) being left out in the cold.
Luke has been designing a 70mm bolt-on mitsu-flange throttle body for a long time now that uses all the stock sensors. It is done in a plastic mold and is ready for casting. There just is not enough money to be putting these things into production unless there is a demand for it.
As for .1378 inches, I think the stock throttle body has been doing just fine. Would I see a higher HP gain out of the bored out 1G non-turbo TB (63mm), or an aftermarket TB? Of course. Is it necessary? Not for 5HP in the grand scheme of things when you are at 1000+HP.
Down the road when the Beyond Redline throttle body is produced, I will change over to that, along with 3" IC pipes when I go to a larger turbo. For now, I am going to stick with the stock 1G TB since I have bigger costs to currently look at (engine and turbo).
____________________________
Tim Zimmer
2.3L, BW475, AEM, etc.
Since we're crunching the numbers, why not aim for a happy medium regarding the TB? Use that 2.5" piping to its fullest (as if you're not already doing so). 60mm translates to 2.3622 inches. 2.5" translates to 63.5mm. Why not get the extra little chunk to work for you? Just a thought to put out there. IMHO, I would always like the diameter of my TB to match all of my intercooler piping.
I just see it as .1378 inches (or 3.5mm) being left out in the cold.
It should actually be a little bit more than that if you really want your piping to match the tb since you have to account for the obstruction of the throttle plate and shaft. You could consider a half shaft mod but I think the discussion on that generally points to issues involving broken shafts which quickly turn into trashed heads.
