Making a Vacuum pump system

[dj_lethrow]

Well I figured I wanted to take care of some of the pressure in my crankcase and just buy a vacuum pump. Decided to get this one

http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku

Maximum Vacuum (hg): 20
Vacuum Pump Included: Yes
Power Supply: 12 V DC
Vacuum Hose Included: Yes
Vacuum Hose Color: Black
Vacuum Gauge Included: No
Vacuum Control Included: Yes
Mounting Insulators Included: Yes
Switching Relay Included: Yes
Height (in): 7.000 in.
Length (in): 8.000 in.
Width (in): 5.000 in.
Quantity: Sold as a kit.

Little pricey, but I think it will be worth it in the end. Few questions though. Since I'am going to be pulling vacuum out all the time I shouldn't need the pcv should I? Reason I ask is the pump has two fittings. I assume that one would connect to the fitting on the valve cover to pull the pressure out, but what about the oil and what not? I dont think I want that going back into the pump. Just looking at different ideas on how to hook it up. I really dont know how many people have acctually done this, but it's worth a shot.

 

[Irrational]

your going to need to close one of the holes in the valve cover off and hook the pump up to the other. your also going to need a vacuum gauge taped into your valve cover as well as a check valve to make sure you don't make to much vacuum. i would recommend no more then 15Hg's for a street car. your also probably going to need a baffled catch can in between the pump and the engine to keep all the oil you can out of it since its not made for what your using it for. the catch can will have NO breather on it. GOOD luck i cant wait to hear the outcome. I'm in the process of doing this on my car.

vacuum pump's are for a lack of better term like NOS awsome when used right and a whole crap load of problems when not used right. do some research start here
http://www.dragstuff.com/techarticles/vacuum-pumps.html

 

[oldman]

your going to need to close one of the holes in the valve cover off and hook the pump up to the other.

Danny, you want to vent it instead of closing it. This will supply the crankcase with fresh air so instead of creating excessive vacuum in the crankcase, you will ventilate it instead. Remember, pressure relief is only half of the picture, equally important, if not more important, is removing fuel mixture/blow by from it.

 

[Irrational]

Danny, you want to vent it instead of closing it. This will supply the crankcase with fresh air so instead of creating excessive vacuum in the crankcase, you will ventilate it instead. Remember, pressure relief is only half of the picture, equally important, if not more important, is removing fuel mixture/blow by from it.

Hey Bruce, he will be venting. With the check valve that he has to buy and tap into the valve cover. It's an adjustable valve so you pick at what point it starts letting air into the engine. if you just had the other open it would make no vacuum. I don't see a point in spending all that money on the kit and have all that potential to seat the ring's that much harder with some vacuum and just run 0. i see no reason he cant run 12-15 in HG's . I have done a lot of reading and think there is so much potential for these vacuum pumps to make power on 4g63's and Sr20's with all that blow by. It's just lost power.

 

[dj_lethrow]

Thanks for the advice guys. Going to attempt this pretty soon. I'll try to take pictures of the install and show how I did things. I mite even add an inline filter like a fuel filter after the catch can just incase. I think the vacuum pump will be in the car. Somewhere on the passenger side. Then I can watch to see if oil enters the pump. I have a RRE catch can.

 

[Irrational]

Thanks for the advice guys. Going to attempt this pretty soon. I'll try to take pictures of the install and show how I did things. I mite even add an inline filter like a fuel filter after the catch can just incase. I think the vacuum pump will be in the car. Somewhere on the passenger side. Then I can watch to see if oil enters the pump. I have a RRE catch can.

I would leave the pump under the hood or you will die of fumes in about 10 minutes with it in the car. you need a catch can with a baffle and no filter on top. just a hose going into the sealed can from the valve cover, then one going out to the vacuum pump.

 

[oldman]

Hey Bruce, he will be venting. With the check valve that he has to buy and tap into the valve cover. It's an adjustable valve so you pick at what point it starts letting air into the engine. if you just had the other open it would make no vacuum. I don't see a point in spending all that money on the kit and have all that potential to seat the ring's that much harder with some vacuum and just run 0. i see no reason he cant run 12-15 in HG's . I have done a lot of reading and think there is so much potential for these vacuum pumps to make power on 4g63's and Sr20's with all that blow by. It's just lost power.

Difference of opinions. I actually don't see a point in a vacuum pump at all unless you're building a track only car, sitting in traffic with constant vacuum in the crankcase is as bad for seals/gaskets as constant positive pressure, air has to come from somewhere if not the BREATHER valve. I'm willing to bet the OP's excessive crankcase issue is cuase by a disabled pcv system (VTA), a defective pcv, worn valve seals/guides, piston rings or combinations of them. The solution should be to fix the cause instead of masking them with a vacuum pump.

 

[dj_lethrow]

Well I started to do some more research about this. Since I need a relief valve. Does this screw into the valve cover then a hose connects over that? I see they have threads then the other end has holes. The one I looked at said it could be adjusted by shims. Basically just wondering how the reliefe valve will be connected with it all. My impression would be have the pcv valve still working at idle? Since I'am going to be pulling vacuum all the time with the electric pump should I disable the pcv? Then I get another hole drilled into the valve cover for the vacuum gauge. I have a rough sketch of how I mite do this. Just wondering if this looks right to you guys. See if you can edit my picture of how it should all be hooked up. Little nicer having something drawn up to go by and simplify it all.

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[dj_lethrow]

Difference of opinions. I actually don't see a point in a vacuum pump at all unless you're building a track only car, sitting in traffic with constant vacuum in the crankcase is as bad for seals/gaskets as constant positive pressure, air has to come from somewhere if not the BREATHER valve. I'm willing to bet the OP's excessive crankcase issue is cuase by a disabled pcv system (VTA), a defective pcv, worn valve seals/guides, piston rings or combinations of them. The solution should be to fix the cause instead of masking them with a vacuum pump.

I dont drive the car daily so just some on the weekends. Only reason I'am going with a vacuum pump is I cant seem to get the crankcase pressure to act normal. Right now I'am running a RRE catch can that eliminates the pcv. I then read in another post that sucking the fumes out is a good idea cause it get crap in the oil and what not. I would think this would help with the pressure I'am having under boost since the pcv is not open. Wouldn't sitting in traffic with a constant vacuum be the same as you would normally? Cause at idle there should be vacuum. Right now I'am at 10vacuum at idle. Would lets say if I set the relief valve to 10 would it go to 20? Or is this not going to affect that sort of vacuum? I dont know exactly the stock spec, but I dont get where you coming from there. Cause if I use the pcv I'am blowing oil past my turbo due to the pressure. Motor is rebuilt as of 10k miles ago. Pefect compression also. So it's not a matter of a bad engine. Should I just run the catch can vented so the pressure gets out or use a vacuum to pull the pressure out?

 

[oldman]

Only reason I'am going with a vacuum pump is I cant seem to get the crankcase pressure to act normal.

So basically you have excessive crankcase pressure under boost, are you making this conclusion due to smoking turbo, smoking catch can or dipstick pop out? I'm assuming you first vented just the breather, turbo started smoking so you disabled the pcv and vented both but problem persisted, is that right?

 

[dj_lethrow]

Yes, the catchcan does smoke. It's not excessive, but enough to see it. Dipstick doesn't pop out. Reason I went to the vented catch can was oil being pushed passed the turbo and under deceleration it would smoke. I put this in and no more problems. Just the catch can smoking now. I see a lot of people run it like this, but I still kind of want some sort of vacuum being pulled out of the engine. I think 15 inch lbs mite be even too much.

 

[oldman]

Did you try replacing the pcv with an OEM pcv first before you disabled the pcv altogether? You're on the right track in seeking better ventilation (not pressure relief) because a smoky catch can means lack of ventilation. With that said, the best crankcase ventilation system is the stock pcv system which is free. I suspect your original smoking turbo issue is probably caused by one of or both following two reasons.

1. Venting the breather (while pcv is still intact), in an attempt to keep oil out of your turbo/IC greatly reduces the PCV system's ability to relief crankcase pressure under boost by removing vacuum in the intake pipe created by a spooling turbo. I suggest recirculating the breather back to the intake pipe with your RRE closed off and install on this line as an inline (closed) oil seperator to keep oil out of your IC.

2. A PCV valve is a maintainence item and needs to be replace per every 2-3 oil change. Your old valve was probably leaking and a replacement OEM valve would be the solution.

What Cams do you have? Why are you only pulling -10inHG?

 

[dj_lethrow]

I'll give the pcv another try. My cams are the hks 264 intake and 272 exhaust. Prety much all I see at idle is about 10.

 

[oldman]

Prety much all I see at idle is about 10.

Then I would go ahead and perform a boost leak test as well, pay attention to pressure leaking under the VC through your intake valve seals.

Also just to clarify few things. A pcv valve does not create too much vacuum, if any at all, when the intake manifold is in vacuum because the breather will provide a stream of fresh and metered (reason why it's rerouted to the intake pipe after the mass) air to the crankcase. This is why the stock pcv setup provides the quickest way to remove harmful blowy before oil settlement, also why I said a closed crankcase/vacuum pump system is not suitabble for a street DD, we all know that it's quicker to ventilate a smoky room with a window fan on one side to pull and an open window on the other side to supply fresh air.

What Danny is talking about is to create vacuum in the crankcase to help with ring seal, his is talking about making more HP and you're talking about pressure relief /blow by ventilation. Danny's is right in theory but I wonder if the power gain in real life is significant enough to justified possible early seal/gasket failures as well as a smoky catch can which will put you back to where you started. If you plan on using the pump and keep your pcv disabled, run it with the breather open for ventilation purposes is my suggestion, also be prepare to make some fuel trim adjustments due to the disabled pcv.

 

[dj_lethrow]

Then I would go ahead and perform a boost leak test as well, pay attention to pressure leaking under the VC through your intake valve seals.

If it's under the valve cover will it be sort of noticeable? Or hard to hear?
Also about the catch can. Should I just run the passenger side fitting on the valve cover to the catch can then cap the other end on the catch can? Cause if I still do this will I be able to pull the pressure out or will it help with my problem.

 

[4wd-Eclipse]

Subscribed ...

 

[Irrational]

Then I would go ahead and perform a boost leak test as well, pay attention to pressure leaking under the VC through your intake valve seals.

Also just to clarify few things. A pcv valve does not create too much vacuum, if any at all, when the intake manifold is in vacuum because the breather will provide a stream of fresh and metered (reason why it's rerouted to the intake pipe after the mass) air to the crankcase. This is why the stock pcv setup provides the quickest way to remove harmful blowy before oil settlement, also why I said a closed crankcase/vacuum pump system is not suitabble for a street DD, we all know that it's quicker to ventilate a smoky room with a window fan on one side to pull and an open window on the other side to supply fresh air.

What Danny is talking about is to create vacuum in the crankcase to help with ring seal, his is talking about making more HP and you're talking about pressure relief /blow by ventilation. Danny's is right in theory but I wonder if the power gain in real life is significant enough to justified possible early seal/gasket failures as well as a smoky catch can which will put you back to where you started. If you plan on using the pump and keep your pcv disabled, run it with the breather open for ventilation purposes is my suggestion, also be prepare to make some fuel trim adjustments due to the disabled pcv.

like Bruce said earlier Just put the stock pcv system back in. I was under the miss understanding you were doing this to make power. do not waste your money on a pump to just ventilate the crank case thats overkill and a half. altho i still don't believe some vacuum would hurt any seals or gaskets but thats just my OPINION. if your gaskets made it this far with all that positive pressure in there witch im sure was 10 fold the amount of vacuum i recommended. i don't THINK it would hurt anything. My first concern with to much vacuum in the crank case is starving the wrist pins of oil but since we got squirters we are more then safe there.

P.S. Bruce we got a vacuum pump going on the project HX 40 car we talked about. You will see, Vacuum pump's are going to be like spinning rim's soon, If you don't got one your just not cool haha JK.

 

[krnbk2]

Danny (Irrational) and I have put a fair amount of thought into the vacuum pump system that we want to design. after reading this thread last night bruce did make a good point about vacuum while cruising or while at idle not being the best and i think i might have a solution for that. because these pumps are electric and not mechanical then you should be able to lower the voltage going to the pump therefore lowering the speed at which the pump spins. by incorporating this with a hobb switch we could have the pump turn on to its full vacuum potential at say anything over 1psi and when under that have it regulated down to only pull enough vacuum to mimic the effect of a breather. when i have more time ill draw a diagram of what im thinking of.

 

[oldman]

If it's under the valve cover will it be sort of noticeable? Or hard to hear?

If you want to be precise, you can always open your VC but this is what I would do.

1. Start the test at the TB elbow so the turbo seal is eliminated as a possible leak source into the crankcase.

2. Start the test with a new OEM pcv valve, if you hear air under the oil cap, disable the pcv again and re-test.

3. If leaking under VC persisted without the pcv while testing from the TB elbow, the only things that can cause this are intake valve seals and excessive piston ring blow by. Follow this up with a dry and wet compression test will help determine if valves seals are in play. Keep your mind open, a new motor doesn't alway yield perfecr/better ring seal, the motor break in process has more to do with it.

Also about the catch can. Should I just run the passenger side fitting on the valve cover to the catch can then cap the other end on the catch can? Cause if I still do this will I be able to pull the pressure out or will it help with my problem.

Like I said in my previous post, not having the breather (passenger side fitting) rerouted back to the intake pipe to take advantage of the vacuum when under boost probably contributed to your initial smoking problem.

1. Venting the breather (while pcv is still intact), in an attempt to keep oil out of your turbo/IC greatly reduces the PCV system's ability to relief crankcase pressure under boost by removing vacuum in the intake pipe created by a spooling turbo. I suggest recirculating the breather back to the intake pipe with your RRE closed off and install on this line as an inline (closed) oil seperator to keep oil out of your IC.

Instead of venting the catch can and cap off the other fitting, cap off the filter fitting on top of the can and run the extra side fiiting back into your intake pipe. This way you get to utilize the vacuum in the intake pipe, keep most oil out of your IC and not having to worrying about introducing un-metered air into the system through the pcv vavle, all at the same time.

P.S. Bruce we got a vacuum pump going on the project HX 40 car we talked about. You will see, Vacuum pump's are going to be like spinning rim's soon, If you don't got one your just not cool haha JK.

Oh shit, I better go vent my Tial BOV then.

The project looks sick, I hope the driver is up to par.

 

[500orbust]

Does anyone know how the vacuum system on an s2000 works? They come from the factory with a vacuum pump, but I believe the pump cost around $600. I also think that they are on constantly, but im not sure.

archie

 

[Irrational]

Does anyone know how the vacuum system on an s2000 works? They come from the factory with a vacuum pump, but I believe the pump cost around $600. I also think that they are on constantly, but im not sure.

archie

ill have to check this out. MOST all times cars come with vacuum pumps stock its for the break assist

Bruce that was a low blow with the Tial comment. By the way did you get the GM MAf yet? to put on with your DSMLINK. Its starting to get colder out i wonder what kind of intake temp's you will have. Let me Guess 80 degree's. hahaha

 

[dj_lethrow]

Alright, well I decided I want to run the catch can just vented. Like the way I have it hooked up. The little smoking that I do see from the can I'am not worried about. One thing that I'am unsure of is with the catch can will over time this cause sludge to build up in my oil pan? A friend told me this. He just said it had to do with something about the oil on the cylinder walls. I dont get why this would even happen.

 

[wishihadatalon]

Not sure if this is in the right spot but what about an exhaust driven system? Seems like with the less exhaust gas you have moving at idle it won't hurt anything and with more when cruising/wot you will be pulling enough. Its also the only "free" vacuum system for hp. Electric puts load on alt. and mechanical pumps put load on the motor.

I remember there was a very good thread about this stuff when the advanced tech forum was around.

 

[dieseltech]

I dont drive the car daily so just some on the weekends. Only reason I'am going with a vacuum pump is I cant seem to get the crankcase pressure to act normal. Right now I'am running a RRE catch can that eliminates the pcv. I then read in another post that sucking the fumes out is a good idea cause it get crap in the oil and what not. I would think this would help with the pressure I'am having under boost since the pcv is not open. Wouldn't sitting in traffic with a constant vacuum be the same as you would normally? Cause at idle there should be vacuum. Right now I'am at 10vacuum at idle. Would lets say if I set the relief valve to 10 would it go to 20? Or is this not going to affect that sort of vacuum? I dont know exactly the stock spec, but I dont get where you coming from there. Cause if I use the pcv I'am blowing oil past my turbo due to the pressure. Motor is rebuilt as of 10k miles ago. Pefect compression also. So it's not a matter of a bad engine. Should I just run the catch can vented so the pressure gets out or use a vacuum to pull the pressure out?

You've got to be kidding me. If you have a comment like this I'd suggest doing a lot more reasearch. When you check vacuum in the intake and it's 10hg your crankcase is in no way connected to this. And spec is 18hg at idle fyi. Crankcase is a positive pressure do to blowby and the pistons displacing the air during the downward stroke. I almost fell off my chair when i read this. And usually a vacuum pump is a race only item. It allows the car to be run with low tension rings that create less friction. It also helps in oil windage. Wow, I don't think I'd trust you to check the air pressure in my tires.

 

[dj_lethrow]

You've got to be kidding me. If you have a comment like this I'd suggest doing a lot more reasearch. When you check vacuum in the intake and it's 10hg your crankcase is in no way connected to this. And spec is 18hg at idle fyi. Crankcase is a positive pressure do to blowby and the pistons displacing the air during the downward stroke. I almost fell off my chair when i read this. And usually a vacuum pump is a race only item. It allows the car to be run with low tension rings that create less friction. It also helps in oil windage. Wow, I don't think I'd trust you to check the air pressure in my tires.

Well sorry not everybody is an expert at this. Are there many posts on this? No. Where do people go to ask questions? Here. This is how people learn. Nice job.