I need some technical knowledge help...

[larryd]

ok so here is what im bout ready to do and I need to know what to buy.. Im thinking of going ahead and getting the 1st gen intake manifold, throttle body, and head and getting it all port matched along with the turbo and exhaust manifold..

my friend whose selling me the head told me while I have it out I should go ahead and build it, meaning stiffer springs and stuff, he said if I plan on getting cams that I should get a head package that Web sells or something for 400 bucks?? does this sound right?? I dont really know enough about the internals of an engine to know what I need.. Id really like to build the head so I can rev the car higher and hold more boost.. I plan on getting an ARP head stud.. I know this is asking for alot but could you tell me if you were putting a new head on the car and it need valve guides what you would do to it if it were your choice?

 

[kilurv8]

If I was going to build a head, this is what I would do

Ported and polished
1mm oversized Stainless Steel valves Swirl Polished and undercut
Web Double Valve Springs
Crower Titanium Retainers
Replace the valve guides and seals
Race Radius Valve Job
(cams are up to you but I would suggest HKS 272s if you are going big)

That is my wish list. It is really up to you. I would not cut any corners in the head. It has been proven that a large portion of your power actually comes from your head and how it is ported and how it moves air. Also keep in mind that if you rev the motor higher, you need tranny mods to shift that high.

 

[NosLaser]

Son of a BICH!! I am sooo sick of typing out my long NosLaser typical responses to technical questions, and having them not get submitted. This is the only site that does this. WTF???? ANYWAY, on to the reply... I definately recommend spending time on the cylinder head while it's off the car. However, you have a 2G so while the head is off, I HIGHLY 110% recommend doing internals. But, internals, to be done properly, require the block to be removed from the car as well. This causes downtime which I am sure you don't want. Do the following, and heed my advice. Buy a spare 2G block and crank. Buy a set of nice rods (Eagles seem to fit the bill) and forged pistons. Take your block, crand, rods and pistons down to the machine shop and get the following work performed: Block bored/honed to match the pistons (prolly .020" over) have the block align honed and decked, get the crank polished and balance the rotating assembly. At this time, also get the head ported, decked, and have the valve job performed. This next step is VERY important. Make sure the machine shop has the spec for the valve tip height so they know how much to grind the stem of the valve (if at all) when they perform the valve job. I know this all sounds like a lot of work and money, and it is. However, if you half-ass it, it will come back to haunt you big time. You aren't exactly driving a Caravan every day. You have a solid running, good looking car witha great stereo. Relax a bit, save your money, and do things the right one once and save yourself the headache. Heed my advice, and you will be extremely satisfied with the results. I know you want to beat your friends, but take your time, do it right, and not only will you beat them, but you'll prolly already be in the next county by the time they hit 3rd gear. Good luck.

Regards,

 

[Tevenor]

Holy $hit. Mark this day on a focking calendar.

I agree with everyone Aslan just said.

Wow. I never thought I would say that.

 

[NosLaser]

A cold day in hell indeed my friend.

 

[rdrkt]

Aslan cut and paste man, cut and paste. You have a remarkable knack for taking a small job and making it into a gigantic one. Why cant he just get the intake mani and tb and call it a day? Personally I would never build on a 7bolt block anyway. You can get a dowl kit, align hone, get it blessed by the pope whatever. I would either look for a 6bolt (they are cheap I have one sitting in the basement) or call Marco and get a 4g64.

Larry once you take the head off its all over the head porting is 1k plus the headstuds and labor and cams and once the heads off its not THAT much harder to just pull the motor and go to town. I would just do the intake mani and tb and call it a day.

 

[larryd]

so in other words until Im ready to swap in a 6 bolt its not worth it.. that what yer saying? you guys replies are very good, they just make me feel very lacking of knowledge here..

 

[NosLaser]

....You have a remarkable knack for taking a small job and making it into a gigantic one. ...

That's what I do best. I have the biggest "well, while you're in there.." attitude. I am just forseeing him doing the same job twice. He WILL see a gain by just swapping the TB and intake manifold, however I don't think he will be satisfied with the results. In another thread, he is talking about wanting to use nitrous for extra power. If he's desperate enough to come to the darkside and use nitrous, then I don't think an intake manifold swap and a throttle body are going to satisfy his wants. Had he said "I'm looking for a few extra bolt on ponies" I would have suggested that swap along with a ported exhaust manifold. I just don't want to see the guy pull the head off, do a nice job of porting it, adding cams, springs and retainers, make good power, and then run into cylinder head lifting problems 3 months later because he didn't have the surface of the block decked. Believe me, when you make higher power, you WILL run into cylinder head lifting problems. The material the head is made of is much to soft for the wide spacing of the head studs, and the fact that the head is not doweled. And after even 30K miles of daily driving with some racing thrown in there, the heating up and cooling down of metal material is enough to cause very minor 'warpage' for lack of a better term. Under normal driving this will never be a concern, however, when you crack that factory cylinder head seal, and make good power and race the car, it will NEVER seat as good without decking the block and starting with a good true surface. Combine that fact with his small rods, and I would at the LEAST re-hone the cylinders, put new rings and rod bearings with his stock pistons and 1G big rods. And that's really cutting corners. I don't like to do things that way, however when I give advice, I can't help but tell someone to do it the right way. Yes, there are 'other' ways of doing it, but in my opinion, it's not the right way to do it. You have to understand, to make this kind of power out of a 4 cylinder, you must create immense cylinder pressure. 400HP in a 4 cylinder is a BIG DEAL. It really is. And all these guys with 10 second 4 cylinders usually have a lot more done than people think. While you may not agree with the fact that I turn build-ups into big jobs, you have no choice but to agree that ultimately, it is the right way to do things, and will help prevent problems in the future. With this much power, you want as much preventative measures as possible. I do agree that the 6 bolt block may be more peace of mind, but once again, is just making the job that much bigger. All the fast guys (Glazer, Rau, Buschur) all run 7 bolts though. Either way, advice on the internet is just that. Advice.

Regards,

 

[larryd]

so you said I would get a gain from just bolting the intake manifold and throttle body on?? how much of a gain?? I can get both cheap thats why I ask.. do I have to port match the head, becuase Im not ready to pull the head off the car.. argh, this is such a pain in the butt.. how much do you think it would cost to have the head port matched to the intake manifold and same with the exhaust and turbo?

 

[crankbender]

A guy down here back in the old days (years ago) had his DSM in the 11s and wanted faster so he spend 6k on a build motor and gained 3 tenths. These engines don't respond that well to building unless you are going to run the alcohol and put the boost over 30psi. You will have gains but why half ass it. You will spend soooooo much doing the job that you could buy yourself a beater 1g and crank a ton of boost and nos and not worry about getting to work if it takes a dive.

 

[jw]

I've spent over $1500 just for a simple head swap and I didnt even do the valve train and porting ****. Here is what I did:
1) Stock rebuilt head decked, cleaned, blah, blah for $350
2) Used HKS 264s $450
3) ARP headstuds $110
4) T-belt, b-belt, tensioners, water pump, knock sensor, EGR block-off, pulleys, gasket set, misc ~$600

I cannot imagine doing the block add ~1000-1500 w/ parts. I would be so broke

 

[NosLaser]

...These engines don't respond that well to building unless you are going to run the alcohol and put the boost over 30psi. ...

Okay, granted, just slapping new rods and pistons into a motor aside from increased C/R isn't going to add anymore power. However, serious engine blueprinting such as what I do to every motor I build WILL yield pretty substantial gains. There is so much horsepower lost to friction, especially the higher the power levels go. Tiny little tolerance disparities of thousandths of an inch can rob power, and sometimes in very large quantities. In all honesty, and this is simply for your own knowledge, you should pick up a good book on engine blueprinting and see for yourself how extremely important the build quality, the tolerances, the smoothness of specific surfaces, etc etc. I'm not saying that you were implying this, but building a race motor is a lot more involved than sliding the bearings in place, bolting the rod caps down, and slapping on the cylinder head. There's some pretty important stuff to concern yourself with down there. If he only picked up 3 tenths, then he didn't pay very much attention to detail. BUT, an 11 second car picking up 3 tenths DID gain about 50+HP, so you may want to rethink your idea that it does no good. Just food for thought...

Regards,

 

[rdrkt]

Originally posted by crankbender
blah blah blah I have no idea what I am talking about

Until you have built a motor and seen the results we don’t need your opinions on this. Don't respond well until 30psi and alcohol don’t make me laugh. I went from stock compression to the second gen pistons and it made a big difference in spool and daily driving. 30hp is a lot if he didn’t add any additional boost I have seen even bigger gains though. But like Aslan said the purpose of building is a motor is not really to make additional hp but to support more reliably the hp you are making.

Larry how many different ways can you ask this question? Seriously. God does not go on this board at all he cant tell you what to do. However you have received advice from several knowledgeable people I don’t know what type of answer you are looking for. I have said I believe its twice now that you should either just throw on the intake mani and tb with no head work or just do the whole motor. Maybe you don’t want or need my advice but Aslan has given you his advice in every post too. Grab you balls and make a decision already.

 

[larryd]

hehe.. if it was only that easy.. i just wanted to make sure I had the right parts thats all.. I can get a 90 tb and intake manifold cheap, then I just need to port match my head, exhaust manifold, and turbo and ill be in business..

I think im gonna stick with the stock cams for now and im going to upgrade my clutch.. Im still in the air between 2100 and 2600 though

 

[Tevenor]

You want a 91-94 TB not the 90.

When my bottom end died, I decided to bite the built and get my bottom end built. What better time than when you need it. I am still running a T25, 2G TB and intake mani, and running 15lbs of boost. But I still wanted my built bottom end so when I finally bite the bullet, its already there.

Why spend money twice?

 

[larryd]

becuase i dont intend on ever building the bottom end.. I think im goig to have to stop modding soon.. financial reasons, I just want to get the car to the peak of its ability with the last few basics like the 1st gen parts swaps, tuning and possibly cams but not set on them yet.. Id like around 315whp at 20psi..

 

[rdrkt]

I seriously doubt you NEED to port match everything. You don’t NEED to degree you motor when you install cams it just a good idea. But I don’t own a 2g so I don’t know.

About the clutch if you are going to be serious about making big power especially if you are going to run on slicks I would give the 2600 a go. I had a 200 on my fwd it was a bit overkill and the pedal was a little stiff but I got over it quick.

 

[crankbender]

First off if you are going to make derrogatory comments like that you need to make damn sure you are correct.

I went from stock compression to the second gen pistons and it made a big difference in spool and daily driving. 30hp is a lot if he didn’t add any additional boost I have seen even bigger gains though.

What you did is change the piston deck heighth. You lowered the total volum you have in the combustion chamber (bad), and you lowered the maximum boost you can run safely (also bad). This crap that increasing the compression ratio doesn't affect boost is a crok of sh@t! When running boost you have to look at the effective compression ratio. When you change the boost or the base compression ratio you change this...And you DID change it. Why don't you just go to a 10.5 to 1 compression ratio and run a non turbo? Probably because the turbo is more efficient...but then why did you move in this direction? You made your car more prone to detonation in order to get more off boost torque. If your car is properly tuned to run the max boost it can on a given fuel and all you change is the compression ratio (increase) you are going to detonate all to hell! You should have spent your time tuning.

"Furthermore, you -should determine whether, the engine's compression ratio permits the addition of a turbo. Since we're already compressing the charge air with the turbo, the higher the engine's static compression ratio is, the greater the tendency toward detonation. In other words, the higher your compression, the less boost you can run."

Author Chris Weisberg is a Turbocharger Specialist for Turbonetics, Inc., manufacturers of custom turbochargers and controls.



***As for the blueprinting I am not saying it will not give you more power but you are looking at 6 grand for 50 hp??? Larry isn't at this point yet and he shouldn't spend that kind of money until he is. This is what I am saying. If he wants a true race car go and do it...But he hasn't even changed the clutch out yet and you think it is time for this???

Aslan I am agreeing with you 100% here I just don't think larry's car is ready for this. He has alot of things he can do before he builds a motor. Head porting may be something for him to think about but then again that is as you said it cutting corners to just do that.

*edit* I forgot to mention that the comments about the 4G63 are directly from one of the individuals that put in the wrench time on the engine. And I have more respect for this individual than anybody on this list. How many of you have a street chessis that is doing 130MPH trap speeds in the 1/8th? How many of you have over 30 hemmi engines that you built? I don't pretend to know everything but if I give advice to Larry I make damn sure it is correct. BTW I believe his engine building experience is way over your head rdrkt *edit*

 

[NosLaser]

Peter,

I seriously doubt Larry is ready for any of this. But as I'm sure you are aware, blueprinting does a lot more than simply add horsepower. It adds the capacity to take an engine to levels far beyond it's normal capacity. But again, it seems Larry has quite a ways to go and quite a bit of soul searching to do before he acts.

...What you did is change the piston deck heighth. You lowered the total volum you have in the combustion chamber (bad), and you lowered the maximum boost you can run safely (also bad). ...

Actually, you are correct however it will not adversly affect performance. Let me explain. The ideal combustion chamber volume for a turbocharged car is only about 60cc. You must remember that at any given moment, you aren't utilizing the full amount of air and fuel in your combustion chamber, so overall volume capacity isn't a very compromising thing. It would be advantageous to cc the combustion chambers to ensure the volume is equal across all 4 cylinders to help promote an even burn. In cc'ing the chambers, you also want to smooth down any hot spots and ridges in the chambers as well as on the tops of the pistons. This of course removes hot spots and decreases your chance for detonation. With proper tuning (air/fuel/timing mix) you can run just as much boost as lower compression, however the volumetric needs of each cylinder will be more intense than with lower compression, and you also need to run good/better gas. For a street car, lower compression may be a good idea, but remember, 8.5:1 is still pretty low compression.

Regards,

 

[rdrkt]

Originally posted by crankbender
First off if you are going to make derrogatory comments like that you need to make damn sure you are correct.

What you did is change the piston deck heighth. You lowered the total volum you have in the combustion chamber (bad), and you lowered the maximum boost you can run safely (also bad). This crap that increasing the compression ratio doesn't affect boost is a crok of sh@t! When running boost you have to look at the effective compression ratio. When you change the boost or the base compression ratio you change this...And you DID change it. Why don't you just go to a 10.5 to 1 compression ratio and run a non turbo? Probably because the turbo is more efficient...but then why did you move in this direction? You made your car more prone to detonation in order to get more off boost torque. If your car is properly tuned to run the max boost it can on a given fuel and all you change is the compression ratio (increase) you are going to detonate all to hell! You should have spent your time tuning.

"Furthermore, you -should determine whether, the engine's compression ratio permits the addition of a turbo. Since we're already compressing the charge air with the turbo, the higher the engine's static compression ratio is, the greater the tendency toward detonation. In other words, the higher your compression, the less boost you can run."

Author Chris Weisberg is a Turbocharger Specialist for Turbonetics, Inc., manufacturers of custom turbochargers and controls.

I never said that increasing your compression ratio wouldn’t effect the maximum amount of boost that you can run I am well aware of that. It’s a trade off on a car that I drive to work everyday. I increased the C/R about a point which isn’t gigantic to get a little bit better spool. If I was building an all out race motor I would want to go even lower the the stock 7:8:1. The car still makes 400+ hp on pump gas and Im just getting warmed up so I’m pretty happy with the results so far.

It still doesn’t make you comment about not needing a built motor until you are going 30psi and alcohol any less informed. Stock pistons arent strong enough to last around the 450+ hp level people have done it but it gets to be difficult and the rods arent strong enough to last consistently at the 500+ hp to the wheels level. Tell that junk about built motors to Shepherd and Jeff Hill and they would laugh too.

Originally posted by crankbender
*edit* I forgot to mention that the comments about the 4G63 are directly from one of the individuals that put in the wrench time on the engine. And I have more respect for this individual than anybody on this list. How many of you have a street chessis that is doing 130MPH trap speeds in the 1/8th? How many of you have over 30 hemmi engines that you built? BTW I believe his engine building experience is way over your head rdrkt

Yes Im sure your motor builder’s experience is way over my head I would never suggest differently. But here is a question for you how many 4g63 motors has your buddy built. How street cars has he tuned to make 400hp on pump gas on using the stock ecu and an afc. Or how man Talon has he built that are running 10s. I bet it isn’t that many if any at all. Engines fundamentals are the same but that doesn’t mean that you can sit your hemi builder down and have him work on 4g63s and turbos and think he will be equally successful. And yes those are some great times for any car to be making the hemi is a serious motor.

Originally posted by crankbender
I don't pretend to know everything but if I give advice to Larry I make damn sure it is correct

Ok then lets go over your advice

Originally posted by crankbender
These engines don't respond that well to building unless you are going to run the alcohol and put the boost over 30psi. You will have gains but why half ass it.

Seriously? So the only way you should build a 4g63 is if you are going to run 30psi AND alcohol? Where are you getting this from? What if you want to make 500 hp are you going to do that on 1 stock motor and make it reliable? If you can I have a cold one right here for you.

I bet you can count on one hand how many people are successfully running 4g63s on alcohol. Not too long ago we saw that example it made 700ish hp to the wheels with a t-78. So your advice then is to not waste your time building a motor until you are at that level?

Originally posted by crankbender
You will spend soooooo much doing the job that you could buy yourself a beater 1g and crank a ton of boost and nos and not worry about getting to work if it takes a dive.

A ton of boost and nos huh? Yes you are right that sounds like a very informed statement I’m sorry.

 

[larryd]

you guys are losing me here..

 

[crankbender]

The ideal combustion chamber volume for a turbocharged car is only about 60cc.

I am not going to say flat out that is wrong but it isn't making much sense to me to say that all turbo engines want a combustion chamber of 60cc. Can you explain this a little?

Actually, you are correct however it will not adversly affect performance. Let me explain. The ideal combustion chamber volume for a turbocharged car is only about 60cc. You must remember that at any given moment, you aren't utilizing the full amount of air and fuel in your combustion chamber, so overall volume capacity isn't a very compromising thing. It would be advantageous to cc the combustion chambers to ensure the volume is equal across all 4 cylinders to help promote an even burn. In cc'ing the chambers, you also want to smooth down any hot spots and ridges in the chambers as well as on the tops of the pistons. This of course removes hot spots and decreases your chance for detonation. With proper tuning (air/fuel/timing mix) you can run just as much boost as lower compression, however the volumetric needs of each cylinder will be more intense than with lower compression, and you also need to run good/better gas. For a street car, lower compression may be a good idea, but remember, 8.5:1 is still pretty low compression.

All he mentioned doing is dropping in 95 pistons. If he did alot more than that then he needs to say so. All of this work can be done without upping the compression ratio and instead adding boost to use the extra capabilities of the engine. In most cases this ends up with a higher hp gain than increasing the compression ratio. This assumes both cars have everything except the pistons the same the only difference between them is the CR and boost lvls. Yes 8.5 isn't bad if you have a totally built block...but to just drop in pistons with a higher deck isn't the proper approach.

Rdrkt-

The point is that if you want to go this far into the motor you probably are not making a street car. If you are you probably have the wrong starting point in a DSM. DSMs are fast and we all love them but they will never beat the supra class cars and still be streetable (once you do this much engine work you are making the price of the 2 cars more equivelant). Now if you want to build a track car you might as well do it right. That means you will probably be running alcohol or over 30 psi of boost (If you are super serious).

I and others have already stated that if you are going to build a motor you might as well do it right. If you are going to do it right you might as well go all the way. This may not mean alcohol to everybody but for sure it doesn't include a stock clutch, street radials, stock diff, and a FWD.

When I say the engines don't respond well until you are ready to run 30psi or alcohol I mean that your power gains will not be worth the effort. Without going to insane boost, alternative fuels, and/or nitrus you are not going to get a power gain to justify the effort. Once you have totally worked the engine going to another of these fuels isn't that hard.

This is to say that larry can get the power he wants (larry is only looking for <350 hp) without doing it.

I don't want this to degrade into a flame war so I will just end this with simple questions.

Would you do all the engine work we have talked about on your street FWD car? Is the 50hp really enough to justify spending 6 grand on a street car when you still have alot of stock parts and radials? Do you really think this is the next logical step for larry?


BTW john shepherd runs 30psi maybe not alcohol but he is really pushing it and was into the 10s before he built the motor to the current specs. Jeff is probably running very similar pressures...


would you be happy if I corrected myself to 30psi OR alcohol (slightly lower for a 2g but not too much).

 

[SPEEDY]

Larryd... I think I would just go with a 1g tb and intake manifold, and cams. Loren was using HKS 264/264 cams. Throw in a clutch also! That's all loren had, except for maybe better tuning, when he ran his 13.06 @ 115. You have a very healthy 52000 mile engine right now, so there is really no need to go into it right yet, unless you plan on making more than 400 hp. Peace!!!

 

[rdrkt]

It just seems that you are overestimating the price of a decent engine build. I paid around 2500 for a stage II head put on a decked and built block. Even if you factor in cams and all the little stuff and instilation you will still be well south of 4gs. This motor will be fairly reliable at the 500hp range. If Larry is going to call it quits at 350 then he should absolutely stick with a stock motor I 100% agree. However I have never met anyone that was ever happy with their current power level. The bang for the buck value is pretty hard to beat with the 91 rod 95 piston combo especially if you are shooting for 450hp or less. This motor with cast pistons should also make a much better daily driver than a motor with forged pistons IMO.

Let me line item the rest so I can make my argument clear and we can play all nice like

You asked

Originally posted by crankbender
Would you do all the engine work we have talked about on your street FWD car?

No I would never in a million years build a fwd car with 400+ hp because spinning the wheels through the first three gears is not my bag.

Originally posted by crankbender
Is the 50hp really enough to justify spending 6 grand on a street car when you still have alot of stock parts and radials?

No 6 grand is insane. But remember he has the top half of his motor out including intake mani and he needs to pull the tranny off to do the clutch job. There isn’t THAT much more work to pull the motor. You don’t build a motor to make more power you build it to make your power more reliable and I think these two point are what we are disagreeing about. If he is going to make big power (he was talking about a green and fp30) he will NEED a built motor. His 7bolt is going to get shaky around the 400hp to the wheel level.

Take it easy

 

[larryd]

thats my point exactly.. the reason I dont want insane amounts of power is becuase Im only FWD and will just spin longer.. I want to get the best bang for the buck now and Im thinking cheaply here.. thats why I was just stating, 1st gen TB, 1st gen intake manifold, 2nd gen head, exhaust manifold and my turbo.. but I wanted to know what I needed to do, like if I needed it all port matched or not..