max rpm on this engine combo

[ACKERSON]

What is the max rpm's I should take this engine to? FFWD "butcher" crank, groden aluminum rods, ross forged ceramic coated pistons, no balance shafts, ffwd level 4 head, hks 272's, and probably 3rd gen lifters, unless somebody comes out with a GOOD solid lifter in the next few months. I haven't decided on valve springs yet so any suggestions on that would be great, maybe something in titanium. I'm looking for people with first hand experience, not something you've seen or heard about.

 

[ACKERSON]

I was thinking the bottom end wont have any problems revving to 10k but I'm not sure about the valvetrain. I've seen some guys out there revving to 10k and sometimes a little farther than that, but I dont know what valvetrain mods they have. I also don't want the bottom end to come flying apart because of too much rpms. Any suggestions?

 

[JiveMasterT]

ask them when you buy the head / parts for the head what it would be rated at.

 

[MNGSX]

I'd go with crower springs and ti retainers or get FFWD'd double spring and ti retainer setup...

1.How high can you rev it? atleast 10k..
2How high will it make power before droping... In which case you should have shifted already.
3. How high will the trans shift at ?

 

[ACKERSON]

I don't think it will have a problem making power to at least 9500. I'm mostly concerned about the lifters ability to perform properly at this rpm. I'm really not to worried about the transmission either, I'm going with a shep tranny or the dogbox. I was looking on comp cams site the other day and noticed they have new special grind camshafts. Has anybody used or even heard of these camshafts?

 

[EVIL X]

Yeah, check out the forced performance cam thread...if that is what you are refering too..comp/fp teams up, and came out with a new cam...from what i have read they equal the shiznit

 

[MNGSX]

I have heard of a shop doing some polishing, profiling and weight reduction on OE rockers.

If you look at 4g63 geometry the lifters dont matter that much. It's not a pushrod engine.. They don't move up and down with the cam lobes the same ramp rate or amount of travel as cam lobe lift. They just sit still and maintain constant hydraulic tension on one end of the rocker. Their mass matters very little.. I'm not saying that there are no pros or cons to hydro or solid just that it is'nt a SBC with a big roller cam where if you rev 1k over stock you break everything.

With new lifters I dont think you will have a problem...

If valve toss, float etc is your concern cut weight in the parts of the valvetrain that move the most. I'd look at the EVO VIII rockers too... You have valves already but I'm stuck on hollow stem intakes and sodium exhausts, Since the EVO, WRX, 'rari, 'gini, corvete LS1-7 and many other engines all share this technology that many engineers can't be wrong.

 

[anomalyinva]

You would need a dual spring setup to go over 9500rpm. Why are you going with Groden rods? They stretch farrrr too much for anything other than a track only vehicle. Who is going to build your tranny? What turbo are you going to run? A T-66 size turbo would probably be running out of steam at 10krpm...

 

[anomalyinva]

Also, if you want to go that high, go with Wiseco pistons to save weight. The 8-10 grams per cylinder will really come in to play above 8krpm

 

[MNGSX]

I'd do what I'm doing with my next engine.

I assume you have no PS pump right?

Get LOW tension rings and a 4 vane vaccum pump. You will have less blowby due to a really good vaccum in the crankcase and the least piston ring drag possible. Less friction at high RPM is really good esp at the rings since you are less likely to get microwelding and other bad stuff happening. The engine last longer and make "fresh engine" power levels longer.

I'd have went with Wisecos with ceramic coated domes and lube coated sides and skirts... mmm nummy....

Then Calico coated main and rod bearings (just treated clevites). There are a special series of clevite bearings just for aluminum rods.. Don't miss that one either trust me.

 

[ACKERSON]

The reason I didn't go with the wisecos is because I heard from some people that had bad experiences with them, but I guess that can happen with any piston. So I went with the ross and had them ceramic coated on the domes and a xylan coating on the skirts. As for the groden rods stretching, have you had first hand experience with this? I have talked to a ton of people that have been running these rods for a very long time and have no problems. They aren't made out of the same alloy as other aluminum connecting rods I haven't decided about the transmission yet but most likely I'll have shepherd build it. This vehicle is going to be track only. This is actually my cousin's vehicle, I'm just doing most of the work on the car and he doesnt have internet access, but he's right here with me. As soon as we're done with his car then we're going to build mine. They will both be on the track this season. thanks for all of the info guys

 

[lambertvr4]

I have pesonally seen a 2.0L 4G63 with 2G lifters run over 10kRPM. That was with a custom cam much bigger than the 272's. Kibblewhite springs and retainers. Single springs by the way.

The tranny was not happy about shifting that high, but it was a stock FWD with 140kRPM. This was five years ago, so don't make fun. Nobody knew any better. The tranny did hold, and survived numerous trips down the track though. It just didn't get in a hurry to shift gears at those RPMs.

We revved to 10k because the engine made peak power at 9500RPM. It wasn't much by today's standards, but back then you didn't need much to be competitive in the Hot Rod class. Boy how things have changed.

 

[MNGSX]

The reason I didn't go with the wisecos is because I heard from some people that had bad experiences with them, but I guess that can happen with any piston. So I went with the ross and had them ceramic coated on the domes and a xylan coating on the skirts. As for the groden rods stretching, have you had first hand experience with this? I have talked to a ton of people that have been running these rods for a very long time and have no problems. They aren't made out of the same alloy as other aluminum connecting rods I haven't decided about the transmission yet but most likely I'll have shepherd build it. This vehicle is going to be track only. This is actually my cousin's vehicle, I'm just doing most of the work on the car and he doesnt have internet access, but he's right here with me. As soon as we're done with his car then we're going to build mine. They will both be on the track this season. thanks for all of the info guys

Aluminum rods only last so long no matter what alloy.

The wiseco problems are mostly machinist mistakes. They did'nt follow directions.

 

[ACKERSON]

I'm not concerned about the rods at all. I've been guaranteed by the manufacturer and the retailer that I can run them up to 1000hp and daily drive the car if I want(which I wont be doing the daily driving part). My biggest concern is the valvetrain.

 

[MNGSX]

Those must be the "heavy" aluminum rods.. ALOT of aluminum in those rods. I think I saw those on FFWD site... They are only like 100grams lighter than eagles... Granted they are probably on par with crower for strength and much lighter than the crowers......


1. Valve weight
2. Spring rate and weight
3. Ti Retainers
4. Rocker weight reduction (EVO VII?)
5. Valve keeper weight


The EVO VIII engine is said to have a 70% lighter valvetrain... Which is why I'm looking at those parts.

 

[ACKERSON]

yeah those are the rods that I bought. Lighter than the crowers but just as strong. Is the evo valvetrain compatible with our cylinder head?

 

[na90dsm]

yea id also liek to knwo about the evo valvetrin thing. could come in handy on a n/a motor also

 

[blue1]

i think you will find the lighter valve train has a lot to do with the hollow camshafts!!!!!!

 

[ACKERSON]

is the valvetrain set up the same as ours? I would mostly be interested in the rockers and lifters. I already have titanium valves, valvesprings, and retainers lined up.

 

[MNGSX]

The cam gears are on the other end of the engine bay but other than kind of stuff the lifter/rocker parts and geometry is yes the same..

One is a lefty and the other a righty.

An FFWD evo motor on a stand

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[MNGSX]

i think you will find the lighter valve train has a lot to do with the hollow camshafts!!!!!!

Nope I think the EVO VII had them and the VIII's are 70% lighter... I know they used different valve springs, lighter retainers etc.. etc...

 

[ACKERSON]

are the evo rockers any better than ours?

 

[Awdboost]

I heard they are only lighter.. I can look into it.. I have a EVO rocker and a stock 2G rocker.. I'll try to weight them in about 5 days or so.

 

[ACKERSON]

sounds good. let me know

 

[na90dsm]

also where are you gusy getting your titanium valves from. and yes let us know about the weight difference in the rockers.