Somebody examine this log please (DSMlink). How do I fix my knock???

[-DSM2NR-]

I did a run in 3rd from 3017rpm-6209rpm (18psi) and was getting 4.9 degress of knock which is no good.
Can somebody please examine my log and tell me what to adjust, thanks.

The 3rd gear run is from 3017-6209. You'll know which one it is once you see all that knock
The car's fuel trims and timing are all at zero.

My mods are on my profile.

 

[biglady112]

Turn the boost down and start leaning it out. I am guessing you are around 20psi. That might be causing some problems. Turn the boost down though. I think its a bit of rich knock mixed with too much boost.

Steven

 

[RavenX]

Ok i just took a look at your log. You are running rich through out the whole pull. Theres 2 things that are going against you right now. First your coolant temps are 216F so the ecu is pulling a degree of timing there already. Next your intake temps are 108F so theres another degree of timing being pulled there. Your going to have to lower the boost from 18psi down to like 15-16psi. Also from 4500 and up pull -2 degrees on the timing sliders. On the fuel adjustments from 3,000 and up go up to -5 on the fuel sliders. The next thing you have to do is make sure your knock sensor is torque probably, check all the motor mounts and make sure they are intact and not cracked and that will greatly affect the knock sensor. Check for boost leaks as well. Other than that i would suggest you looking into buying a wideband sensor as that will help you in tuning alot.

 

[-DSM2NR-]

But how can I make some more power if I need to decrease the timing instead of increase it?
I'm planning on tunning the car and increasing the timing but how can I do this if I gota get rid of knock by decreasing the timing?

And shouldn't I be fine running 18psi on a 190 fuel pump and 650cc injectors?

 

[GVR4592]

Would you rather have a lasting engine or more power? Get your coolant temps and intake temps in check and the knock will most likely go away. Were you sitting for a long time before you did that pull?

 

[-DSM2NR-]

Would you rather have a lasting engine or more power?

Why not have both.........?

And, no, the car was pretty much warmed up when I did that pull.

And how am I supposed to lower my temps?WTF I'm already running a fmic and I do have a cone filter on.

 

[TSIMonsteR]

Is the filter a K&N or something else? Are you still running both stock fans? What kind of coolant mix are you running? You may want to try and rig up some sort of homebrew CAI to help with the Intake Temps. I don't think it will help your knock much, but will keep the ecu from pulling that timing. Also, did you say you were running 18psi? From looking at the log, I would lower the boost a little, and try tunning from there first

 

[-DSM2NR-]

Ok, I'll lower the boost a little but I still don't understand why I'm getting knock on 18psi. I got a 190fp and 650cc injectors. With all this knock it seems like the car doesn't even have any fuel upgrades

 

[Ravenous]

I just wanted to say that posts like this are what keep turning my head towards dsmlink. Clear concise answers... might not like the answer but the answers are there none the less.

 

[RavenX]

But how can I make some more power if I need to decrease the timing instead of increase it?
I'm planning on tunning the car and increasing the timing but how can I do this if I gota get rid of knock by decreasing the timing?
And shouldn't I be fine running 18psi on a 190 fuel pump and 650cc injectors?

You don't need timing to make lots of power. Theres guys on the dsmlink forums that have made in excess of 500whp with only 6-7 degrees of timing. I myself made 350whp with 5 degrees of timing on pump gas. It all depends on what your car likes and thats something your going to have to go through trial and error. Also for pump gas i doubt your going to get anymore than 16-17 degrees of timing at redline. Stay around 12-15 degrees of timing on pump gas at redline. If you go with race gas then of course you can go higher. The first thing you have to do is get that wideband. Frankly without it your going to have tuning problems unless of course you go to the dyno but even then i don't trust dyno widebands. Sort out of the fuel first then go ahead and bump the timing up until you see knock. 0-1 counts of knock is where you want to be at.

Ok, I'll lower the boost a little but I still don't understand why I'm getting knock on 18psi. I got a 190fp and 650cc injectors. With all this knock it seems like the car doesn't even have any fuel upgrades

What you have to do now is find the problem. Trust me i had knock problems like you. I could never go past 20psi on pump gas on my turbo so i ended up getting meth injection to help. Sure enough the problem was still there. After going through every possible thing i found out the engine motor mount was bas. I replaced that and now i can go on 25psi on pump gas. Big difference. Just do the things we told you and you will find your problem. You need to start leaning out the car because it can be a case of rich knock as well so we have to rule that out. If you still have the stock fans you may want to replace them. Preferably with a slim fan that flows upwards of 1,000cfm. Make sure your filter is clean etc etc. These things can make a big difference. Its all about troubleshooting from now on.

 

[-DSM2NR-]

thanks, you helped alot.

I already checked my motor mounts. They are in good shape. My filter might need some cleaning it's moderately dirty.
The first thing I'll probably do is lower my boost a little. At some point in that log the car was actually boosting 18.9 pounds.
So what you're saying is that I should start moving the fuel sliders down. If that doesn't help, then I should go ahead and lower timing, correct?

 

[TurboDSMer]

Question, if you have solid motor mounts or inserts or filled mounts would that affect the knock sensor at all?

 

[RavenX]

thanks, you helped alot.
I already checked my motor mounts. They are in good shape. My filter might need some cleaning it's moderately dirty.
The first thing I'll probably do is lower my boost a little. At some point in that log the car was actually boosting 18.9 pounds.
So what you're saying is that I should start moving the fuel sliders down. If that doesn't help, then I should go ahead and lower timing, correct?

Yeah boostest was around 18psi if thats what your gauge saw then your ok. Frankly looking at your mod list you shouldn't even be knocking at all at that psi. However something is hindering you and you have to find it. Check on that knock sensor and do a boost leak test. As for the mounts make sure they have absolutely no cracks. You first move the timing from 3,000 to 8,000 -3 degrees. After that is done now you set the fuel. Move the sliders back until you see around 10.5-10.8:1 on the air fuel ratio values. Once that is set go back to your timng and start moving the sliders up until the car starts knocking. Am pretty sure your going to have to keep the timing sliders at -3. Do the tuning at night as its alot cooler and you will get alot more colder air into the system. Also i forgot to mention check your plugs as well. Change them if need be and use a gap of .25-.28.

Question, if you have solid motor mounts or inserts or filled mounts would that affect the knock sensor at all?

It depends really. If the stock mounts have any tears or rips in the rudder that will greatly affect the knock sensor because the mounts are not supresing the vibrations and so the knock sensor picks all that up. Hence what happened to me. Switching to the prothane mounts and prothane inserts helped greatly and fixed my knock problem. I only noticed a slight vibration at idle but its no biggie really.

 

[biglady112]

I say tune for less boost first. I don't think retarding the timing right now is the way to go. Your turbo is small and you aren't really moving the air. Most of our Evo III 16g and smaller cars all run big timing numbers. We have one that runs the stock timing map, and the other 4 or 5 cars run advanced timing. All cars are in good shape, and tuned well. All 40lb/min+ turbos run very well at the stock timing maps. All of the other cars with 65lbs/min+ turbos are running really good at the stock maps or just slighty retarded on the timing. Not more than -2- -3* timing.

Like Raven is saying, give the car a good once over then go from there. Post logs as they are updated and we can point you in the right direction. I haven't met a turbo I couldn't max out yet. From the T-25-T67/FP3575.

I think a tune up of the coolant system and intake system will help. With the stock MAS you are stuck with intake temps like that. You can do a little, but not much right now being summer and all.

Its not about making power. It IS about having a safe running vehicle. If the car performs better, gets good gas mileage, make power consistently and generally just kicks ass, then you have done good with the tuning. Power numbers and track numbers aren't everything. Every car, driver, driver's ability and environment is different. You can only do what you can do.

Steven

Steven

 

[-DSM2NR-]

I did a couple practice runs (you'll know which ones they are when it shows the car is moving 80mph or so) on log 2. The boost was around 16/17psi on the first run with the fuel sliders set to -5%. I left the timing at zero. You'll notice quiet some knock. Then (Log2 second run) I lowered the boost to around 13/15psi DSMlink shows that the car is running much better (more hp and less knock) at these settings.
I can't remember what exactly I did on the third run, I think I moved the timing sliders down a little bit.


Please examine this log and let me know what you think

 

[TSIMonsteR]

for some reason I can't get the log to come up, but from your description, it sounds like your car is a timing lover. Now that you have the boost down, and no (little) knock, you may want to try and advace the timing a little bit at a time

 

[RavenX]

I say tune for less boost first. I don't think retarding the timing right now is the way to go. Your turbo is small and you aren't really moving the air. Most of our Evo III 16g and smaller cars all run big timing numbers. We have one that runs the stock timing map, and the other 4 or 5 cars run advanced timing. All cars are in good shape, and tuned well. All 40lb/min+ turbos run very well at the stock timing maps. All of the other cars with 65lbs/min+ turbos are running really good at the stock maps or just slighty retarded on the timing. Not more than -2- -3* timing.

Like Raven is saying, give the car a good once over then go from there. Post logs as they are updated and we can point you in the right direction. I haven't met a turbo I couldn't max out yet. From the T-25-T67/FP3575.

I think a tune up of the coolant system and intake system will help. With the stock MAS you are stuck with intake temps like that. You can do a little, but not much right now being summer and all.

Its not about making power. It IS about having a safe running vehicle. If the car performs better, gets good gas mileage, make power consistently and generally just kicks ass, then you have done good with the tuning. Power numbers and track numbers aren't everything. Every car, driver, driver's ability and environment is different. You can only do what you can do.

Steven

Steven

Reason why i told him to move the timing sliders down to -3 was so he can set the fuel first to 10.8:1 or so. After that he can move the sliders back up until the car knocks. His setup shouldn't be knocking at all except theres some leak in the system or the knock sensor is not torqued to 7ft/lbs like it should be. I agree he needs to get rid of those stock fans and upgrade to slim fans. It will help alot with the cooling.

 

[RavenX]

I did a couple practice runs (you'll know which ones they are when it shows the car is moving 80mph or so) on log 2. The boost was around 16/17psi on the first run with the fuel sliders set to -5%. I left the timing at zero. You'll notice quiet some knock. Then (Log2 second run) I lowered the boost to around 13/15psi DSMlink shows that the car is running much better (more hp and less knock) at these settings.
I can't remember what exactly I did on the third run, I think I moved the timing sliders down a little bit.


Please examine this log and let me know what you think

Repost the log when you can so we can take a look at it and go from there. Heres some questions. What was the knock count on those runs? What was the estimated air fuel ratio? When you do a pull start from 3,000 in 3rd gear all the way to 6,500-7,000 rpms.

 

[-DSM2NR-]

I guess I can't upload the log because dsmtuners maximum attachment size is 488kb but the log is 540kb.

However, I'll tell you the knock count.

2216rpm-5878rpm Knock: 0, Knock retard: 0, A/F ratio 10.51:1

6178 rpm 0.4 knock and 1 knock retard A/F 10.51:1

6533 rpm 0 knock and knock retard A/F 10.52:1

6831 rpm Knock: 0.7, Knock retard: 2, A/F 10.52:1

Intake temps at 114F Coolant is at 223F throughout the run. Boosting 13-14psi. Injector Duty: 50%-70%

The info above was from log 2. Please examine the data above. I'll also include log 3 which is shorter and hopefully will upload. Check that one out too

 

[RavenX]

Ok i took at look at the third log. Its a good improvement. Heres what you need to do. From 6,000rpm's to 8,000rpm's pull the timing sliders all the way down to -2. Your midrange looks good so lean out the fuel until you get 10.8:1 now and see what happens but leave the fuel from 6,000 and up alone. Go 1% up from 6k to 8k on the sliders. You really need to sort out that coolant temp. 227F is not a good temperature to be at considering 234F is the warning point. Other than that your going in the right direction. Just remember get the fuel first set and aim for 11-13 degrees of timing with 0-1 counts of knock doing back to back pulls.

 

[-DSM2NR-]

I'll try that. I actually did another run after cleaning my filter and changing the spark plugs. I got my intake temps down to 91 degress and my coolant temps to 203 degress

 

[scottsee]

I would suggest an intake heat sheild. I logged drops in temp of +20 deg with mine. When was the last time you flushed your radiator? In the summer time their is NO reason you can't run 100% distilled water through your radiator. You will notice better cooling results.

You can also change your coolant offset value to turn the fans on before 210 deg. That will also help you keep intake temps down. You will need to remember advance timing when your offset value pulls timing. I, personaly think you need to add more boost to get your g/rev much higher then the 2.1-2.2g/rev for your base tune. I would bump it upto 15psi. You can take an additional -1deg out and start again. I'm getting tired to explain why, but I think RavenX would agree with on that for a "base" evo3 tune... Especally without a wideband or 3.3bar map.

I'm sorry about the stupid question but, you have set base timing, fuel pressure, gap, to appropriate settings? LTFT are fine? No vac-boost leaks, exc...

 

[-DSM2NR-]

I already got an heatshield. I still have to do a boost leak test. I will drop a little more timing and see what happens.

 

[olmytsi]

Can somebody break down the fuel enrichment map in relation to g/rev? I tried looking at the maps from the dsmlink forums but i got lost. I am curently seeing a peak of 2.75 g/rev at 19-20 psi.
Also, what kind of mafraw readings are you guys getting? My peak since turning the boost up to 19-20 yesterday is 2168 hz.

 

[RavenX]

I would suggest an intake heat sheild. I logged drops in temp of +20 deg with mine. When was the last time you flushed your radiator? In the summer time their is NO reason you can't run 100% distilled water through your radiator. You will notice better cooling results.

You can also change your coolant offset value to turn the fans on before 210 deg. That will also help you keep intake temps down. You will need to remember advance timing when your offset value pulls timing. I, personaly think you need to add more boost to get your g/rev much higher then the 2.1-2.2g/rev for your base tune. I would bump it upto 15psi. You can take an additional -1deg out and start again. I'm getting tired to explain why, but I think RavenX would agree with on that for a "base" evo3 tune... Especally without a wideband or 3.3bar map.

I'm sorry about the stupid question but, you have set base timing, fuel pressure, gap, to appropriate settings? LTFT are fine? No vac-boost leaks, exc...

Couldn't have said it better myself. I did forget to mention to check your base timing and make sure its at 5 degrees bdtc. Also he doesn't need to do the coolant offset. Just go to the misc options and click on the fans button and have them run all the time. It will lower the temps just as well. I do agree in that its weird that hes knocking so early at 13-15psi. I didn't knock with that turbo until i hit 21-22psi on pump gas or so. Yet every car is different.

Can somebody break down the fuel enrichment map in relation to g/rev? I tried looking at the maps from the dsmlink forums but i got lost. I am curently seeing a peak of 2.75 g/rev at 19-20 psi.
Also, what kind of mafraw readings are you guys getting? My peak since turning the boost up to 19-20 yesterday is 2168 hz.

What do you mean? Why not just log airflow(lbs/min) and that should tell you what g/rev that is it. Usually the g/rev will climb up peak at around 6,5000rpm and then drop. Considering of course if you have a stock 1g manifold. Even with cams the g/rev drops anyway. But am going to take a guess here and say your around high 30's low 40's lbs/min in terms of flow. I haven't logged mafraw but i'll get back to you on that one.