Terrible timing on 2g log

[spoold]

Ok my setup is e316g, evo 8 560's, walboro 190 (it might be a 255) and pretty much all bolt on supporting mods.

This log looks terrible, im going to go run another one, but they all share teh same probelms, and taht is that they NEVER rise to 16 timing advance? I cant get more than 12-13 advance at redline? Is my base timing incorrect? Any other advice?



Ok new run! I changed nothing, just logged a few more rpm's

rpm o2v rpm
2508 .89 23
2600 .93 20
2680 .91 18
2780 .93 16
2880 .93 14
3016 .95 12
3132 .97 11
3284 .97 10
3428 .97 9
2580 1.0 9
3740 1.0 10
3932 .97 10
4096 .97 10
4264 .97 10
4456 .97 10
4620 1.0 10
4780 .97 11
4948 .97 11
5112 .97 11
5280 .97 12
5452 .97 13
5612 .97 16
5788 .97 17
5944 .97 17
6112 .95 18
6336 .95 17
6432 .95 16
6564 .95 19

 

[GVR4592]

It looks like it's knocking a bit. What are your Safc settings at and how much boost was that run?

 

[spoold]

My safc is set to -15% across the board (i am JUST starting to tune, and im still new to tuning)

Anyone know why my timing at redline is 19???

Do "bumps" up in timing indicate knock as well? or do i only add fuel when timing takes a dip?

 

[yangtech]

it doesn't look lean like the log you had before.

 

[spoold]

Id like to tune it for 15 psi and then turn the boost up to 17-18, but should i just turn it up to 17-18 (what ill be running day to day) and tune from there? I was told it was easier to tune it a few psi under what you want to run?

 

[olmytsi]

Get it sorted out at 15 psi and then turn it up.

 

[eclipsegsx1736]

I don't see much wrong with that log, except a little knock ~6500 rpm. You're getting around 19 degrees and it may be even higher if you went to redline. You may try adding +1 on the SAFC around the 6000-6500 range if other logs continue this same trend.

You want the timing to dip down when the boost comes on, and steadily increase from there up to redline. Yours does just that, except for aroun 6500. 2g's seem to be a little flat until around 5000 rpm, as is yours.

 

[CanadianTSi]

Your rich from 3k-6k take out some fuel there.

Everything else looks fine.

 

[spyderturbo007]

CanadianTSi is correct. Or you could just turn up the boost a couple of psi and add a percent above 6k.

Just make sure that you take a look at your corrected peak airflow at your current boost and at the new boost level. That way you can make sure that your increase in pressured resulted in an appropriate volume increase. No sense running your turbo harder if you aren't increasing the flow proportionally.

 

[scottsee]

Adding onto what spyderturbo007 has said, I don't know if pocket loggers can see g/rev airflow but incase yours does I would strongly suggest adding it to your values list. g/rev is what will let you know which of the 12 timing and fuel enrichment maps your are on takes the guess work out of "why is my timing so low/high".

 

[spoold]

it can lock airflow, if thats what you are meaning? im going to do another pull tomorow at 17 psi, which is the most i really care to run on the car for my goals. Ill post up!

 

[spyderturbo007]

You can only log airflow in lbs/min, but using the SAFC-II correction corresponding to the highest airflow value, along with the rpm @ that point, you can calculate g/rev.

But I just wanted him to make sure that he was getting a proportional airflow increase corresponding to the boost increase. No sense upping the boost 3 psi, when you only get .5 lbs/min more flow.

 

[Mitsu_Racing]

Your rich from 3k-6k take out some fuel there.

Everything else looks fine.

I thought on 2G's anything higher than 1.0 was rich?

 

[Ultimatedsm]

I remmeber that -15 across the board on the S-AFC is for 550's (base line). I bet on the 560's, your pushing slightly more fuel. If you have a walbro 255LPH, you should invent in a AFPR to make tuning a lot easier and more consistant. His 02 Voltage is indicating he is running rich. You can knock if your lean or too rich as well.

 

[19BLACKGST98]

Sorry to drag up an old thread but im trying to learn about tuning and this thread was a good example. I have a keydiver chip and its 93 oct map is set to 16* advance on top map and for my c16 image it is set to 23* advance on top map. I have a built motor with 8.5:1 wiscoes so is it normal for my timing to only be set to 16*? I have a friend with 9:2 compression and he has his chip set to 17*. I was just wondering if all of this sounds right or if one of ours should be set diffrently.

I also wanted to know how you guys knew that he was having knock just by looking at his log at the top of the page and also how you knew he was running rich? Sorry for all of the questions but I have allways had my car tuned onthe dyno (which I still am I would just like to know how to tune)

Other info: I have an SAFC II, Keydiver dual image chip, Old school MafT with 3" gm maf (set to base...no adjustments)

Any help would be appriciated thanks. (ive read alot of the tuning threads for beginners on here but they dont seem to make a light bulb go off over my head )

 

[viperlp01]

Ok if you look at a timing map as rpms drop the timing should slowly come down and finish around 16-18. When it drastically slams into the single digits he is either really lean or really rich. Most of the time it is lean knock. The reason your timing drops is because the knock sensor sends a reading to the ecu that it is knocking so in turn the ecu pulls time to be on the safe side... If you have a wideband and a logger to record timing adv. then you can really tune it in. You want to go as lean as you can before timing gets pulled/you start knocking... Know c16 has a higher knock threshold. The dual image chip advances timing because it knows it can get away with it safely... You can run higher boost levels and leaner A/F on race gas because the octane is higher making the fuel more stable...

If you have more questions you should pm me.

 

[19BLACKGST98]

Like I said someone else is tuning it for me on the dyno. I was just interested in learning how to tune. Thanks for the help.

 

[viperlp01]

Ya i was trying to help you .. Does that make sense to you??? Ask me questions.. ITs hard to teach someone that doesn't ask questions

 

[spyderturbo007]

I have a built motor with 8.5:1 wiscoes so is it normal for my timing to only be set to 16*?

Yep, that's normal with Jeff's chips unless you specifically request a higher timing map. 16 degrees of advance is what you get with the stock map.

I also wanted to know how you guys knew that he was having knock just by looking at his log at the top of the page and also how you knew he was running rich?

It doesn't look like he was knocking, except perhaps at the 6.5k data point. Without being able to see airflow, coolant temp and IAT I can't say for sure. Basically, you're looking for an initial drop in timing as the turbo reaches full spool and then a steady, consistent increase all the way to red line.

(ive read alot of the tuning threads for beginners on here but they dont seem to make a light bulb go off over my head )

Give this a read and see if it helps.

 

[19BLACKGST98]

Thanks for the replys guys. I started to read that thread but I am really tired (just finished a 17 hr shift at work) so I will finish it tomorrow and start asking questions. Thanks again. (the parts of that thread that I read were helpful)

 

[19BLACKGST98]

Originally Posted by kmoore
Then I should rev up to each NE point and try to get to 0.

Originally Posted by Spyderturbo007
Yep.


** I dont really understand what you mean here?**
Also in the next few days Ill get a log and try to post it....maybe that will help me understand if I can actually see what needs to be changed right in front of me.

Edit: Also in the OP's first post what is the O2 voltage letting you know? What will it indicate besides what the O2 voltage is and why is it important to know that?

 

[spyderturbo007]

When you set up the SAFC, you choose your adjustment points, such as 1k, 1.6k, 2k, etc. The points you choose are called Ne points.

There are two levels of tuning, closed loop (idle and cruise) and open loop (WOT). When tuning your closed loop, I was telling him to free rev the car to the first Ne point, let's say 1k, and adjust the SAFC so that the STFT and LTFT add up to about zero.

Edit: Also in the OP's first post what is the O2 voltage letting you know? What will it indicate besides what the O2 voltage is and why is it important to know that?

Can you point to which post you are talking about? I looked at Kyle's first post, but in that post he's asking about base injector compensation. I didn't see a log.

 

[toofast82]

I remmeber that -15 across the board on the S-AFC is for 550's (base line). I bet on the 560's, your pushing slightly more fuel. If you have a walbro 255LPH, you should invent in a AFPR to make tuning a lot easier and more consistant. His 02 Voltage is indicating he is running rich. You can knock if your lean or too rich as well.

i've read tests that showed the evo560cc to flow a little more than advertised!
It does seem your running rich and should try taking a little fuel out. Also invest in a afpr or go to smaller pump(evo8/9) to get a more consistent tune as well

 

[19BLACKGST98]

When you set up the SAFC, you choose your adjustment points, such as 1k, 1.6k, 2k, etc. The points you choose are called Ne points.

There are two levels of tuning, closed loop (idle and cruise) and open loop (WOT). When tuning your closed loop, I was telling him to free rev the car to the first Ne point, let's say 1k, and adjust the SAFC so that the STFT and LTFT add up to about zero.



Can you point to which post you are talking about? I looked at Kyle's first post, but in that post he's asking about base injector compensation. I didn't see a log.

Thanks for all the help. Your last post made alot of sense to me. STFT = Short term fuel trim?
I also read on another thread that you have been posting in that .82 ment that the guy was running Very lean so Im guessin O2 voltage low = Lean (but at what point is it considered lean?) and High O2 voltage = Rich (but at what point is it considered to rich?)

rpm o2v rpm
2508 .89 23
2600 .93 20
2680 .91 18
2780 .93 16
2880 .93 14
3016 .95 12
3132 .97 11
3284 .97 10
3428 .97 9
2580 1.0 9
3740 1.0 10
3932 .97 10
4096 .97 10
4264 .97 10
4456 .97 10
4620 1.0 10
4780 .97 11
4948 .97 11
5112 .97 11
5280 .97 12
5452 .97 13
5612 .97 16
5788 .97 17
5944 .97 17
6112 .95 18
6336 .95 17
6432 .95 16
6564 .95 19

EDIT: Also when I do a pull what do I need to look for to make sure Im not about to ruin another built Engine?
(I have a Dual Image keydiver chip, WideBand O2, SAFC II and MAFT)

I understand that since I have one of Jeffs chips that the tune will be close enough that I wont hurt my engine. I just want to know to further my knowledge. Thanks

 

[spyderturbo007]

Yep, STFT is Short Term Fuel Trim, whereas, LTFT is Long Term Fuel Trim.

As for the O2 sensor running 0.82v, I just use that as a guideline. If I remember correctly, he had replaced the O2 sensor prior to those runs, which means he was running lean. If it was an older O2 sensor, I wouldn't have given it a second thought. You really want to tune by timing and airflow, not the front O2 sensor. It's basically only used as guideline and shouldn't be something you base your tune from.

Did Jeff set up your chip to trip the CEL at a specific knock retard?

For WOT runs, I look at airflow and timing to determine knock, since we can't log knock on the 2g. Well, at least we couldn't until recently with Ceddy's new logging program. Basically, you look at timing, corresponding airflow and the SAFC's correction factors, then compare them to the 2g airflow maps. Any deviation, barring a pull from IAT or coolant temp, and you know you're knocking.

That log looks good, except for that point at 6.5k, but I can't be sure without looking at the airflow numbers. You might have just got dropped into a higher airflow map.

What boost are you running?