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Cam differences cam identification cam ID cams camshafts camshaft degreeing timing

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Originally posted by Big Woo
GTM don't know about the data logger, but the EMS will allow mapping of any auxiliary analog input so long as it is scaled correctly. 0-5v if memory serves.

Thanks Big Woo, was looking at a single pen chart recorder on eBay which went from .0001 to 1.0 v. on the input but don't want to get involved with dropping resistors. Besides the seller didn't answer email on shipping weight costs so it closed for $15.50 without my bid. I have a dual trace osciliscope which if I can find the pin-outs will give me some readings. Know anyone who has made their own harness connector??

"
I think that the furthest I've seen a 4G63 off cam timing wise is 6 degrees."

I've still not counted sprocket teeth but that might be fixable just by jumping a belt notch.

"
I believe the 9 degrees off was on a olds 2.3l quad4 back in 89 or 90, when I was involved in their showroom stock, and firehawk programs."

You start talking big Detroit iron and I'll be lost. If memory serves on a block mounted cam you couldn't hope to move the chain that small an incriment?? Do you remember the eventual fix?
...............

Almost have my son's Talon running, actually did but leaked oil at the turbo oil supply fitting on the head. Bummer for once everything was repaired or replaced and set right it started within 2 seconds and purred like a kitten on fast idle. Looks like I'll have to make some substitute fitting from a hose barb and cut the banjo off the line.

Cheers,
GTM
 
"For some reason my cams have a R8 number on them. I belive they came from a 1990 Galant j spec.

The new exhuast cam I got in with my head say R8. I double checked them one is a b and one is an 8. Which one is better?"

are you sure your looking at the right area....the end towards the cam wheels, not the cas sensor. my 1990 talon engine and my jspec engine both have no marking...i think this was because there was only one set of cams for them in the early part of production. i started seeing the I.D. marks in engines after 1991
 
GTM I have modified pin out locations on the factory connectors, and of course tapped into certain signals. ON the other hand though I do have several sets of the factory ecu connectors, if your interested no charge, just e-mail me an address or something. You can then pull the connectors from the holder and replace the wire or move it to a differnt location.

The quad 4 is a DOHC 4 cyl that uses a chain to drive the cams. This was part of Oldsmobile's IMSA road racing program, so the ultimate fix was unique. We made a set of custom adjustable cam gears. Most cam in block V-8s can have the cam timing changed +,- 8 degrees by using offset dowels, bushings, or keyways. Not difficult just more time consuming than adjusting gear rotation.

Sound like you may just need to replace the copper crush washers on the oil supply line.
 
Originally posted by GTM
Almost have my son's Talon running, actually did but leaked oil at the turbo oil supply fitting on the head. Bummer for once everything was repaired or replaced and set right it started within 2 seconds and purred like a kitten on fast idle. Looks like I'll have to make some substitute fitting from a hose barb and cut the banjo off the line.
Road Race Engineering has a nice replacement oil feed line kit for $55 and their close to you. It picks up the oil from the filter housing and come with a new bolt and washers to plug the head outlet. Really nice folks.

'90 ECU pinouts and wiring differences if your looking for them.

Steve
 
Originally posted by steve

Road Race Engineering has a nice replacement oil feed line kit for $55 and their close to you. It picks up the oil from the filter housing and come with a new bolt and washers to plug the head outlet. Really nice folks.

'90 ECU pinouts and wiring differences if your looking for them.
Steve



Many thanks Steve, that was a winner. Old pipe is out, braided hose, oil filter mount plug removed using 1/2" drive 2' breaker bar, elbow fitting required removing oil pressure sender, loosing alternator and swing it up. The supplied plug for the head wasn't long enough to really pick up any new threads but I was able to substitute a small "O" ring for the copper washer. I'll eventually pull it back out and add a few drops of Devcon epoxy aluminum and never worry about it.

It runs!!! Smoke is 25% of original once run for a while, none at start again unlike before. It continues to drip oil / antifreeze/ water out the exhaust which requires a plastic dish pan, the initial throttle blips sent this liquid emulsion about 8' down the drive. More problems have now been revealed, temp gauge in-op as is the radiator fan, pulled electrical plug on top of thermostat housing (temp sensor / fan switch relay???) and probed both wires with test light to find no voltage and gauge did not move. Looks like book time to circuit trace those items, any good location for a bypass fan switch?? Until I get the fan operational, the broken solenoid nipple which mounts on top of the air cleaner(??) repaired can't really road test and blow / burn the crud out the exhaust system. Oh, got a water leak at boiling point under P/S pump, hope it's just the hose and not the W/P. And find my timing light to set the timing... just guessed at it from previous nut settings. :) If anyone can identify from memory those items and easy tests / repairs it will save some time pawing over the wiring charts.

In neutral and revving the engine, the most boost on the factory gauge was about +1 psi, idle is about -3.5 psi and drops to -7 > on slamming throttle shut.

I could have made that oil line assembly but just opted for the shelf item and the 44 mile round trip on the '83 Venture. It will be interesting to see if this thing can keep up with my bike. :) Again Steve, thanks for URL referral, hope I can return the favor.

Cheers,
GTM
 
Originally posted by steve
Maybe I don't know what I'm doing but it seems that you can calculate the overlap by simply looking at when the intake opens and when the exhaust closes.

Based on what I can tell from the service manual the 1G 2.0l cams differ as follows: (specifications pages, timing is in place lift in another)

intake NT opens 26 BTDC close 46 ABDC lift 35.493 (34.993 limit)
intake MT opens 21 BTDC close 51 ABDC lift 35.493 (34.993 limit)
intake AT opens 21 BTDC close 51 ABDC lift 35.200 (34.700 limit)

Exhaust NT opens 55 BBDC close ATDC 9 lift 35.200 (34.700 limit)
Exhaust AT opens 55 BBDC close ATDC 9 lift 35.200 (34.700 limit)
Exhaust MT opens 55 BBDC close ATDC 9 lift 35.493 (34.993 limit)

From this I come up with the NT intake cam being 252 duration, the turbo intake at 257 and a duration of 244 for the exhaust. NT has 35 degrees overlap (26BTDC + 9ATDC) and turbos have 30 (21+9).

Is my math correct?
Steve


I am wondering if anyone knows at what lift these values are given. I will be degreening my cams this weekend and I need to know at what lift the stock cam specs are given. I am assuming it will be either 1mm or 0.05". Does anyone know?
 
Originally posted by Talontsi96
I am wondering if anyone knows at what lift these values are given. Does anyone know?
I have no idea and they don't say in the manual.
One thing to note on this list. I didn't have or measure the base circle for the cams so what's listed isn't really lift but the diameter at max lift as listed in the manual.

Steve
 
Well If we dont know at what lift those values are then they are pretty well worthless values since in order to degree the cams you need the valve opening/closing times related to crank angle and specific lift. I need to degree in these cams so I need to know what lift, these values are quoted at. Someone out here should know what they are.
 
Originally posted by Talontsi96
Well If we dont know at what lift those values are then they are pretty well worthless values since in order to degree the cams you need the valve opening/closing times related to crank angle and specific lift. I need to degree in these cams so I need to know what lift, these values are quoted at. Someone out here should know what they are.

I'm sorry, (whoosh) what part of the info given am I not understanding or you not understanding?

Are you asking when is maximum lift achieved in relation to crank angle? If yes, that info was not given and yes you will then need to degree the cams to determine the _profile_. As previously mentioned a protractor bought or made and a dial indicator is needed. Unless you have 2 dial indicators you will have to repeat the process for each cam though only one lobe from each needs to be selected.

You might find some grinder will give you the info withot purchase but usually they only give the profile to purchasers. They don't want you to know what it is since you could then take the info to another grinder and have it ground to those specs. It's not difficult just time consuming for you probably want to check it a couple of times. Get yourself some graph paper and plot it out as you take your measurments that way you will have it for reference. Use different color pencils if plotting on the same graph paper. You can also use 2 seperate sheets and then overlay one on top of the other and hold up to a light source to compare one against the other. You can then flop one over and see the profile is different and where potential problems could occur.

Are you looking for some specific magic number for performance mods or general curiosity?

Cheers,
GTM
 
Basically what I'm doing is trying to degree the stock cams on my new 4G63/4G64 project. In order to degree the cams you need to know when they open ie. at what crank degree (before top dead center) and when they close (after bottom dead center). The degree is marked typically at 0.05" cam lift (on HKS cams its at 1mm) that is measured with a dial indicator gauge positioned on the valve retainer. This procedure is repeated for both the intake and exhaust cams, then the cam gears are adjusted so that the angles (read off the degree wheel) at that lift (read off off the dial indicator) are consistent with the specs.

Now I have the specs for the stock cams from the Factory Service Manual of when they should open and when they should close in relation to the crank position (1G Manual Turbo Intake 21 deg BTDC/51 deg ABDC , Exhaust 55 deg BBDC/9 deg ATDC). However, the Factory Service Manual does not indicate at what valve lift (ie 0.05" or 1mm or something else) these open and close values are at. Therefore there is some info missing if you want to degree the cams. I need the open and close angles and the value of the lift at those angles. I hope that is clearer now to understand. I am assumning that the quoted numbers are at 1mm or 0.05" valve lift but I'm not sure.
 
quote:Originally posted by Talontsi96
...
The degree is marked typically at 0.05" cam lift (on HKS cams its at 1mm) that is measured with a dial indicator gauge positioned on the valve retainer.

1)

Manual does not indicate at what valve lift (ie 0.05" or 1mm or something else) these open and close values are at. Therefore there is some info missing if you want to degree the cams. I need the open and close angles and the value of the lift at those angles. I hope that is clearer now to understand. I am assumning that the quoted numbers are at 1mm or 0.05" valve lift but I'm not sure.

2)
............

1) The reason it's taken on the lift is because the car has hydraulic lash adjusters.

2) Since the factory does not have any provisions for changing the cam timing which would violate state and federal smog laws they ain't going to give it to you. You are sol and unless someone else has done this and published you will have to do it yourself.

The .05" is to compensate for variations which may occur in the lash adjuster and where it will come up solid on the oil fill. With these they don't have to worry about a quieting ramp since they are always in constant contact. I don't know how much the .05 represents in crank degrees of if that is a concern for until you profile the _cam_ you won't know. Remember you are not profiling the valve lift though those measurments are meaningful it's the cam grind and position you want to know.

If you are going to use the slotted cam gears they should be marked with factory settings, if not then you most certainly should take the measurments as a reference point.

Cheers,
GTM
 
Youre obvously not on the same wavelength as me here.

1. When you degree cams you have to do it with a solid lifter adjusted to zero lash so hydrolic lifters have nothing to do with given cam specs.

2. Normally when you get cam specs you get both the crank angle at which the valve should be open 1mm or 0.05" as well as what crank angle the valve should be closing and be at 1mm or 0.05". Thats how you degre the cams. The factory manual gives you the specs for opening and closing but they dont specify at what valve lift that is. Therefore the specs that they give you are realy useless. Unless they just give you these opening and closing angles at the 1mm or 0.05" valve lift and just assume that since its the standard they dont have to specify it.

3. After you deck your block and/or head your deck height will be different and your cam timing will be off so cam degreeing is something you should do in order to get it back to spec and it has nothing to do with smog and emmisions, if anything if your cams are out of time emmisions will go up not down.

4. Since I am building a 4G64/4G63 Hybrid, I will have 6mm extra deck on the block and I will Have To degree the cams for the cam timing to be correct so I have no Choise but to degree them.

So After all this, I hope that you are on the same wavelength as me. Now does anyone know for a fact at what valve lift the cam opening and closing angles are given in the Factory Service Manual.
 
Originally posted by Talontsi96
Youre obvously not on the same wavelength as me here.
"
1. When you degree cams you have to do it with a solid lifter adjusted to zero lash so hydrolic lifters have nothing to do with given cam specs.
"

Whoah there, When you degree a cam you got no lifter and you don't have to have a crank, chain/belt/gears any more than the grinder need them when he puts his blessing on his work.

What you do with that grind may influence where you introduce the crank angle but that has nothing to do with the profile. The crank angle comes under the heading of cam timing.

"
2. Normally when you get cam specs you get both the crank angle at which the valve should be open 1mm or 0.05" as well as what crank angle the valve should be closing and be at 1mm or 0.05". Thats how you degre the cams.
"

Don't know who is providing what info since it's been 30 years that I had custom grinds to my specifications, perhaps I didn't have the problem of adding and subtracting from 720.

"
The factory manual gives you the specs for opening and closing but they dont specify at what valve lift that is.
"

What's that .05" for if it isn't _open_ .05" off the seat????????!!!!!! And that is with the lash adjuster filled with oil. If you don't do that then any timing tweaking you do will be off if you are indexing when the valve is on the ramp.

"
Therefore the specs that they give you are realy useless. Unless they just give you these opening and closing angles at the 1mm or 0.05" valve lift and just assume that since its the standard they dont have to specify it.
"

I've not thought about it but that's probably the rock of #3. It is a standard which will cause the engine to perform and meet smog laws. Since the cams are not symetrical don't expect the exhaust to be .05" on the close.


"
3. After you deck your block and/or head your deck height will be different and your cam timing will be off
"

Absolutely not the timing, the relationship between taking .10"-20" off will not be adjustable in the current design. You can' split hairs with that cog belt.

"
so cam degreeing is something you should do in order to get it back to spec and it has nothing to do with smog and emmisions,
"

That is nonsense, do the profile/timing if you want the crank attached. Put a headgasket under it and do it again, put another gasket and do it again, I'd almost bet dollars to donuts you can't even measure the difference. And most certainly can't make any kind of adjustment..... Just look at where the belt is introduced on the cam gear, put your feeler gauge alongside and see what the difference is to the next tooth... it ain't gonna happen. Sure it's introduced at an angle but that's not going to amount to a hill of beans.


"
4. Since I am building a 4G64/4G63 Hybrid, I will have 6mm extra deck on the block and I will Have To degree the cams for the cam timing to be correct so I have no Choise but to degree them.
"
No again, what you have to do is set the timing CORRECTLY, if you think you are going to improve anything by retarding the lift so you don't foul valve and piston think again.

"
So After all this, I hope that you are on the same wavelength as me.
"

Yegads, I don't care which way you argue the point, it ain't gonna happen. Set the cam timing CAREFULLY so you don't bump valves, other than that you can't make something happen when it's just not there.

Now if you are changing the grind then get the vernier sprockets, if you want to experiment with valve timing get the vernier sprockets but you are NOT going to change anything with stock items.

"
Now does anyone know for a fact at what valve lift the cam opening and closing angles are given in the Factory Service Manual.
"

This all may have looked good on paper and reading something somewhere. But you can't get there from here. I've not thought about this since the thread started so it took a bit of proding to get the gray matter in gear. Please tell me you understand... or I'm going to loose what little hair I have left.

I'm not going to tell you I'm the world's best DSM mechanic, but the 20k-30k other cars I've worked on in my lifetime might give you some confidence. If you need more do a search using these words: SAE, Lancia, Bugatti. If you are taking a class somewhere please have the instructor contact me.

Let's play 20 questions on the attached jpg. What is it, who makes it, why, how many verniers, what's the slot/dog drive in the big gear, countertotational? what's the gear cut, what's the bevel gear for, can I make a cake, where's the Hal go?

$25 dollars to you for all the right answers within 24 hours (June 6). Open book test.

Please start a new thread if you are not comfortable with the answers, choose the subject so you dont get all the urban legends. Your question was legit but you didn't like the answers. You might get some response on the High Performanc mods but solidify your position before you couch the problem. I don't go there for it's so so specialized (unique) to DSM and those who have spent time and money with all the tricks which are not for a street machine and most certainly can't pass smog or ever hope to get a license plate. This isn't a pis*ing contest, you asked a question, I gave an answer which you didn't like and with the tenor reserved for someone learning how to shave.

BTW, don't stop asking questions for that will really tick me off.

Cheers,
GTM
 
Originally posted by GTM
Originally posted by Talontsi96
Youre obvously not on the same wavelength as me here.
...

BTW, don't stop asking questions for that will really tick me off.
Cheers,
GTM

After thought.

You seem like a nice person, it took me a while to engage brain so I could give an answer. My BTW was sincere, it did specify ask questions rather than make assertions.


Perhaps my initial response is what you would expect from all the urban legends and thus the wavelength quip. I won't commit on how others will take that bit of flip but I'm one who gave you the benefit of the doubt.

I will offer that you can always PM those who contributed to this thread in hopes they will contradict my assertions or your premise. There is another thread of some months ago which may be helpful. I am not one for making statements that are not valid, I note the "search" and I'm not going to spend my time citing my own credentials or knowledge because you wish to challenge those things which are obvious.

Were I to request "guru" status it would obligate me to a position of authority and anyone could then obligate me of that authority. I do not have a spare engine and cannot give you the specific numbers you have asked, I can state without hesitancy
 
Originally posted by GTM
Originally posted by Talontsi96
Let's play 20 questions on the attached jpg. What is it, who makes it, why, how many verniers, what's the slot/dog drive in the big gear, countertotational? what's the gear cut, what's the bevel gear for, can I make a cake, where's the Hal go?

$25 dollars to you for all the right answers within 24 hours (June 6). Open book test.

Crap. No attachment.:cry:
 
Originally posted by GTM
Originally posted by Talontsi96
Youre obvously not on the same wavelength as me here.
"
1. When you degree cams you have to do it with a solid lifter adjusted to zero lash so hydrolic lifters have nothing to do with given cam specs.
"

Whoah there, When you degree a cam you got no lifter and you don't have to have a crank, chain/belt/gears any more than the grinder need them when he puts his blessing on his work.

What you do with that grind may influence where you introduce the crank angle but that has nothing to do with the profile. The crank angle comes under the heading of cam timing.

"
2. Normally when you get cam specs you get both the crank angle at which the valve should be open 1mm or 0.05" as well as what crank angle the valve should be closing and be at 1mm or 0.05". Thats how you degre the cams.
"

Don't know who is providing what info since it's been 30 years that I had custom grinds to my specifications, perhaps I didn't have the problem of adding and subtracting from 720.

"
The factory manual gives you the specs for opening and closing but they dont specify at what valve lift that is.
"

What's that .05" for if it isn't _open_ .05" off the seat????????!!!!!! And that is with the lash adjuster filled with oil. If you don't do that then any timing tweaking you do will be off if you are indexing when the valve is on the ramp.

"
Therefore the specs that they give you are realy useless. Unless they just give you these opening and closing angles at the 1mm or 0.05" valve lift and just assume that since its the standard they dont have to specify it.
"

I've not thought about it but that's probably the rock of #3. It is a standard which will cause the engine to perform and meet smog laws. Since the cams are not symetrical don't expect the exhaust to be .05" on the close.


"
3. After you deck your block and/or head your deck height will be different and your cam timing will be off
"

Absolutely not the timing, the relationship between taking .10"-20" off will not be adjustable in the current design. You can' split hairs with that cog belt.

"
so cam degreeing is something you should do in order to get it back to spec and it has nothing to do with smog and emmisions,
"

That is nonsense, do the profile/timing if you want the crank attached. Put a headgasket under it and do it again, put another gasket and do it again, I'd almost bet dollars to donuts you can't even measure the difference. And most certainly can't make any kind of adjustment..... Just look at where the belt is introduced on the cam gear, put your feeler gauge alongside and see what the difference is to the next tooth... it ain't gonna happen. Sure it's introduced at an angle but that's not going to amount to a hill of beans.


"
4. Since I am building a 4G64/4G63 Hybrid, I will have 6mm extra deck on the block and I will Have To degree the cams for the cam timing to be correct so I have no Choise but to degree them.
"
No again, what you have to do is set the timing CORRECTLY, if you think you are going to improve anything by retarding the lift so you don't foul valve and piston think again.

"
So After all this, I hope that you are on the same wavelength as me.
"

Yegads, I don't care which way you argue the point, it ain't gonna happen. Set the cam timing CAREFULLY so you don't bump valves, other than that you can't make something happen when it's just not there.

Now if you are changing the grind then get the vernier sprockets, if you want to experiment with valve timing get the vernier sprockets but you are NOT going to change anything with stock items.


GTM

Well You have proven to me that we are definitely not on the same wavelength. What youre talking about is profiling a cam not degreeing a cam. Degreeing a cam is when you set the cam at the CORRECT angle to the crank so that it is perfectly set at the position the factory specified. You do need adjustable cam gears which I thought I mentioned. You will need a solid lifter to do it, you will need a degree wheel and a dial indicator. Contrary to your answers to my questions, deck height will affect the cams being not properly timed a specially in my case when I got extra 6mm of deck. I will need to make sure that my cams are degreed properly. Trust me stock 4G63 cam gears will not work, since you will never be able to lign up the marks properly when you put the timing belt on. Once again, I dont want to change the valve timng at all I just want to set the valve timing at the factory setting.
Note that HKS 272/272 cam specs give you the crank angles of when the cam opens and closes at 1mm lift (first link). The stock cam specs just give you the angle but do not specify at what lift those specs are. This is the information required to degree cams. You also seem like a nice person, but I dont think you understand or just arent on the same wavelength when it comes to the required cam specs for the degreeing process. It seems to me that you are confusting the terms degreeing with maybe profiling a cam.

Enjoy the links, which should shed some light on what I'm after.

http://www.roadraceengineering.com/eclipsetech/hks272camspecs.gif

http://www.cranecams.com/instructions/degreeing/degree.htm

http://www.teamnabr.com/ubbpub/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=002277#000021
 
Lets assume it's seat timing (The moment the valve begins to leave the valve seat). Since you have a dial indicator, a solid lifter, and a degree wheel I would assume you can measure the angles and verify the specs. Even if the actual timing is off you can verify the duration and record the profile. If the number match your golden. If not then I suspect you'll have to do some creative matching based on what you recorded and decide what the best fit is.

Someone tell me if my logic is flawed here.

Steve
 
Steve!

Yeah, thats what I was thinking too. I will be degreeing the cams this weekend, since I got the specs of the open/close angles, I will just repeat the procedure for different lifts and figure out what the specs are actually for. Someone else on another board mentioned that the stock cam specs are likely for the actual seat angle somewhere around 0.0005" and not at 1mm or 0.05" lift so that what I'll try. I think your reasoning is right on and not flawed at all. I will post the results on here for anyone else who will be trying this in the future so that they dont have to wonder.

Phew, I'm really glad that someone finally understands what I'm talking about.
 
One thing you can do to get in the ballpark for setting the starting cam timing is make up some degree wheels for the cams too. The intake dowel pin should be 0 degrees and the exhaust pin at 3 degrees 5 min when the crank is at 0. That then the cam gear timing marks should align.

Steve
 
Originally posted by steve

Someone tell me if my logic is flawed here.
Steve

Nope, you got it right. The problem is the cog interval doesn't allow for splitting hairs on the overlap. If you jump a tooth on the intake using the stock grind it's history. The fact we have been shown a marketing blurb instead of his actual setup would suggest this is an excersize in writing skills rather than doing the job. And now a followup with millionths of an inch... yegads... wish I could afford that tool. I wouldn't waste my time since nothing can be done to change the opening and closing timing unless you add the vernier cog gears.
 

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Originally posted by GTM
The problem is the cog interval doesn't allow for splitting hairs on the overlap. ... I wouldn't waste my time since nothing can be done to change the opening and closing timing unless you add the vernier cog gears.
He's got vernier cog gears, their just called adjustable cam sprockets by everyone who sells them for DSM's. Like you both point out, that's the only way to make up for the difference in height between the crank and cams from a 4G64 2.4L block and the 4G63 2.0L block or to account for milling the block/head on a stock setup. IIRC they have something like a full tooth in either direction of adjustment.

The millionths of an inch lift spec was given to him to illustrate the point of seat timing vs. at a given lift. Simply translated it means at the moment of measurable valve opening. The guys over at NABR are known to exaggerate for effect in order to make a point.

Steve
 
Originally posted by steve
He's got vernier cog gears, their just called adjustable cam sprockets by everyone who sells them for DSM's.

IIRC they have something like a full tooth in either direction of adjustment.

Steve

Actually they are adjustable by up to 10 degrees in both the advanced and retarded directions. So its more than 1 tooth of adjustability. You can see the edge of one in this picture from John Shepard's web page.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.
 
Well I degreed the stock cams a few days ago. The quoted open and close angles in the Factory Service Manual are for actual valve seat timing not at any specific lift (ie 1mm). So its confirmed guys, the specs are for actual seat timing.
 
Originally posted by Talontsi96
Well I degreed the stock cams a few days ago. The quoted open and close angles in the Factory Service Manual are for actual valve seat timing not at any specific lift (ie 1mm). So its confirmed guys, the specs are for actual seat timing.

Here, I'll bring it to the top of the list by adding this post.

Chris, perhaps this can get stashed so it doesn't get lost, there were a lot of person hours that went into developing the thread with a lot of professionals contributing. If someone wants to re-write giving credits and put in one of the permanent forums that would best serve the members.

I know you got your hands full with all the gremlins running around. Maybe it should have it's own heading for it of course isn't complete if you want to know about how to nitride your own cams.

Cheers,
GTM
 
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