Latest 14b time

[GRNDSM]

I took out Green Machine for the fist time this year. I was very excited about running 180-190psi motor on a little 14b. That was until I saw the knock… With base timing set around 10-12 deg and ~19psi of boost, knock would go up to around 25-30… I lowered to the timing to “around” 7-8 deg (I will not know for sure until I check it with the light) and that improved the knock issue, I was seeing only 3-4 counts.

I made total of 4 runs: 12.045, 12.32, 12.055 and 12.22 all at 112-113mph. Best 60' was 1.69 on the first pass, but the rest were in the 1.7's.

That 12.04 runs beats my 12.05 best but fall short of Phil’s 12.02 record. Talk about hitting a very small window .

I am going to have to figure out an all new way of tuning my car with this new motor. I have a feeling that my timing will end up around 5 deg…

Leon
RR

 

[Violater101]

Great times Leon! Just think if you could have gotten abit more timing without the knock.

 

[DSSA]

Originally posted by GRNDSM
I took out Green Machine for the fist time this year. I was very excited about running 180-190psi motor on a little 14b. That was until I saw the knock… With base timing set around 10-12 deg and ~19psi of boost, knock would go up to around 25-30… I lowered to the timing to “around” 7-8 deg (I will not know for sure until I check it with the light) and that improved the knock issue, I was seeing only 3-4 counts.

Wow! Base timing around 10-12 degrees?

I've been using 3-4 degrees of base to get the most power up top when you start either running high boost levels or a turbo past its efficiency and heating everything up.

Good times though. All this 14B talk is REALLY making me want to build a low-buck 14B car.

Looks like you and Phil are neck-and-neck.

 

[GRNDSM]

>Great times Leon!

Thanks!

>Just think if you could have gotten abit more timing without the knock.

Well, that might be easier to say… I have never ran a motor with such high compression (180-190psi cold, before I even started the motor), in the past, I was able to run 12 deg of base timing with 25psi and zero knock (on race gas). It is going to take me a while to figure out how to do the same on this motor. But you are right, extra 10 deg of timing can do wonders to power!

>Wow! Base timing around 10-12 degrees?

Sure, why not? Many people run even more!

>I've been using 3-4 degrees of base to get the most power up top

What CR/compression motor are you using? What fuel? Though, I have a feeling that by the time I am done tuning my car, I will be close to the same values.

>when you start either running high boost levels or a turbo past its efficiency
>and heating everything up.

Well, there is the thing. Now that I am not getting the timing that I had before, all of the sudden, my turbo is much more capable. Before, it would drop to 13-15psi by around 6k rpms. Now, it is keeping 19psi past 6k…

This goes to show you that motor is not breathing as well as it can. But 14b at 15psi and under 6500rpms will make roughly the same power as much larger turbo (however, it quickly runs out of breath at higher boost or higher RPMs). Heating is not a major issue at that boost level, plus I do have rather large FMIC.

I really want to get this tuning issue under control before I move onto the “real” turbo.

Leon
RR

 

[DSSA]

At only 19 psi, yes, I can see running advanced timing.

I'm talking larger-sized turbos (Red, AGP L3, etc.). @ 25+ psi. on 8.5to1 and 9.0-to1 piston motors with stock ECU and piggy-backs.

The lower base timing actually lets the computer run higher timing up top with the absence of knock. These values with this setup are of course going to change with the addition of C16 (you should be able to set base a little higher) of course, but this is on several cars on dynos. The one put down 400 whp on 93 Octane, the other in the mid-420s on pump gas.

You need to read the plugs as well...the knock sums on dataloggers are not always consistent with what's going on inside the motor. Yes, they're usually close, but I've seen knock indications on plugs whereas it's not reading on brand new sensors on cars.

 

[Skeletor]

This is kinda off-topic, but how fast does that 14b spool with a 180-190psi motor?

I have been thinking it would be fun to try a 14b or 16g on my 9:1+ motor. Just for laughs basically.

 

[GRNDSM]

I did some dyno tuning on my new motor and 14b turbo. My first run was 290.9hp and 289.1lbft of torque. This is EXACTLY how the car was tuned when it ran 12.22 @ 113.2 (crappy 60’ time). I got total of 8 pulls in 1 hour (without rushing things much) and by the end of the day I was making 305.6hp. So it is 15hp improvement. Not a huge deal on a big turbo, but here I could not tune with increasing boost (it would drop to around 12-13 psi no matter what). However the amazing part was the amount power that I was making in past 6500rpms. This is despite the fact that boost was much lower!

I am going to try to give it another shot this Wed night…

Leon
RR

PS for larger image of the dyno sheet, check out: http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/wJTGPi...NNSfxfpt48B5ZV7gdfTk/GRNMCH/14b Duno Runs.jpg

 

[DSSA]

What was your timing set at on these runs, Leon?

Nice numbers with a 14B, indeed.

 

[GRNDSM]

I had to lower it to 5 deg (from 10-12deg) to avoid knock.

Leon
RR

 

[DSMu4ia]

What's your car weigh?

That MPH for those dyno numbers...are HUGE.

 

[GRNDSM]

My car is pretty light. Racing weight is around 2950lbs, including driver (I am around 200lbs).

Frankly, I was expecting more power… Using simple HP calculator, my power should have been in the 330hp range (using both, ET and MPH methods).

If you consider that I had “only” 290hp when I got to the dyno in FWD mode, I must have had a even less power in AWD mode that I raced in (perhaps 275hp if you use 5% due to RWD losses). Comparing 330hp to 275 indicates that something is off, ether that Dyno or the formula. Only formula has been proven time after time to be relatively accurate, especially when you have a clean run…

The important part is that I was able to get extra 15-16hp to the wheels. For 2950lbs that translates to almost .2 sec and almost 2mph! We shall see on Wed

Leon
RR

 

[DSMu4ia]

Yea, seems most 300whp 16g cars, on a full weight car, go about 108mph.

That's why I was asking, I would have thought more like 330whp as well

In any case, congrats and good luck. A local here went 112mph last Wednesday, but only at 12.5, no traction. He just put on a PTE61, so we will see how much faster he goes .

 

[Phil1320]

Good luck man! I knew you couldn't stay away from the 14b!!! Congrats on your entry in the USCC, have you seen the issue yet?

In case you didn't read elsewhere, my Talon made 266hp@5850 and 282lb-ft.@3450 on the Altered Atmosphere AWD Dyno at 21psi. My comp. sits between 148-160 across. I'd really like to get rid of the balance shafts and what not, but, for now, I don't want to touch the motor at all, not even cams. It has the original 78k, I want to ride it out. I should be racing again for the first time this year this week at LVD. I am back in CT now for good. The Extreme thing did not work out so I moved back this past weekend. I ran the car once in Maryland last November......bested at 12.05@113. So, good luck this week, maybe I'll be chasing you again


Phil1320

 

[GRNDSM]

>I knew you couldn't stay away from the 14b!!!

Well, I am doing this for 3 reasons:

1. I do not want to run a new motor on an expensive turbo.
2. I want to make sure that everything is OK.
3. I wouldn’t mind getting into 11’s

BTW it is that same actual 14b that I ran 12.05 with 3 years ago! It had around 100-110k mile at that time. I have been using it as a loaner to local club members who needed to test if smoke coming out of their tail pipe is due to a bad turbo. By now, it must have over 115-120k on it .

>Congrats on your entry in the USCC, have you seen the issue yet?

Yes, I have. I got it last Wed. But it seems that no-one else has seen it . You are the only other person who brought it up to me.

>In case you didn't read elsewhere, my Talon made 266hp@5850 and 282lb-ft.@3450
>on the Altered Atmosphere AWD Dyno at 21psi.

Yes, I have. Unfortunately we can’t compare the two types of dynos. AWD dyno’s tend to read low (and it is not just the RWD losses). So while they very useful for tuning, they should not be compare to DynoJets…

>So, good luck this week, maybe I'll be chasing you again

You should come-up to NED for the import race next Sat.

Leon
RR

 

[Phil1320]

...I knew you were using it it to break in a new motor.....


Altered Atmosphere's AWD is a dynojet set-up....


I don't know if I can make it up to NED, I'm still kinda moving in, and of course now I need a new job......what's the date anyway?


By the way, the page after you in SCC, I'm in there. don't know if you saw it. I already filled out my ballot, I voted for you and Dan Cokic'c Lancer EVO.


Phil1320

 

[GRNDSM]

>Altered Atmosphere's AWD is a dynojet set-up....

Oh, I stand corrected. That makes the numbers much more comparable.

> and of course now I need a new job......what's the date anyway?

It is this Sat., May 31st.

>By the way, the page after you in SCC, I'm in there. don't know if you
>saw it. I already filled out my ballot, I voted for you and Dan Cokic'c
>Lancer EVO.

Thanks! I appreciate the vote! Congrats for getting in, as well.

Leon
RR

 

[Phil1320]

....I have already been presented with the option of a drag rental this Friday at LVD, but the event sounds cool....Epping is just so much harder to get to....I'll let you know though........


Phil1320

 

[candela]

Great times Leon! I always felt like I should have rode out my 14b a little monger perhaps have ported it and tried for soem good times with it...

This is kinda off-topic, but how fast does that 14b spool with a 180-190psi motor

Ross 9:1 on big rods, 185psi across, stock unported 14b (cracked around wastegate so it was leaking pretty bad) I got 15psi by about 2900 maybe a hint less. This was my break in turbo for my motor running simple 15psi its was quite fun in the lower rpms...
Anyhow Leon I know you know my ballot will have your name on it for sure

Austin

 

[GRNDSM]

We just had an Import/Sport Compact event at New England Dragway. I was supposed to be using a brand new FP Red turbo (a loaner from a friend), but didn’t work out, so I spent the entire day on the 14b…

I started out the day by loosing my I/C pipe (turbo outlet) after shifting into 3rd gear. But that first 1/8 was VERY fast, almost .2 sec faster than when I ran 12.04. On my second pass, I ran 11.925 @ 112.38.

I ended-up baking it up with: 11.939, 11.948, 12.017 and one more of 11.842 @ 113.43, to brake my own record one more time .

The icing on the cake was that I also won the Street Shootout car!

Back to the 14B that I have been using for years, I simply could not hold much boost. It was dropping from 19-21psi, down to 12-13psi and didn’t really know why. Well, I found that it had a lot of shaft play, so I put in a different used 14b, which also had around 100k miles on it (I also fixed a small leak between the turbo housing and 02 housing, which should have also helped me hold more boost).

My car behaved really strange with this new turbo. All of the sudden, I had boost and lots of it! Only my car was not tuned to run boosts. I kept lowering the boost and never really got it under full control. It would start out around 24psi an level out around 20-21. That left me with quite a bit of knock, which explains why I was never able to match previous best trap speed. I think that this turbo should be good for 11.5-11.6 in my car when properly tuned. The thing is that I am not planning to do that. Big turbo, here I come! .

That is about it.

Leon
RR

 

[CanadianTSi]

Congratulations on the new record....simply amazing

 

[4g63mightymax]

I was up at NED today (sat the 31st) and I am sooooo impressed. I was looking at all the other dsm's in the pits and looked under the hood of yours expecting a big garrett turbo (which I believe you did have last year??) and BAM!!! 14B.... Then I had to watch another run of yours just to make sure I saw you go into the 11's. Well, I just wanna say congratulations on hitting 11's and I cant wait to go see how fast I can make my 4g63 14b mightymax go down the quarter.......It was great inspiration!
I dont care what anybody says, thats a damn fast car.
Jeremy

 

[4g63mightymax]

I just thought of a question or 2 for you. Why no coolant lines on the turbo? Is it just not necessary since you are just going a 1/4 at a time? Second, whats you opinion on running the oil feed to the turbo from the back of the head or the oil filter housing? which do u think is better?
jeremy

 

[Phil1320]

Very nice Leon......! 11.84! Now I have to chase your ass again!

Congrats on the first 11 second 14b runs. I actually ran yesterday at the drag day and could only muster a 12.09. I guess I am finally going to have to do a few mods. I was really looking for 11's with the stock I/C and piping, injectors and all that. Basically, by the 1/8 mile my race is over and I only have whatever power the car has to carry me, and it hasn't been enough.

I'm interested in your 60', and your best 1/8 ET.

"Big turbo, here I come !" -- So, if I can best you again, you'll never bolt a 14b back on??? Who knows if I can, and I'm really wanting alot more power, but I have plenty of mods that I can do now to gain more power on the 14b. I just don't know how much longer I will play with the stocker. I too, am just ready for a bigger turbo.


Phil1320

 

[GRNDSM]

This is "the" timeslip:

60' 1.679
330 4.912
7.554 7.554
mph 92.35
1000 9.876
1/4 et 11.842
MPH 113.43

Frankly, I do not believe that all of the conventional mods really help the 14b. I have a LOT of mods on my car, which are wasted when used with this turbo. I think that SAFC, FPR and boost controller tuning is most of what is needed to fine tune a 14b.

Leon
RR

 

[Phil1320]

...............if you say so......I don't have a FPR or AFC and am still running the stock MAF, injectors, intercooler and piping, as well as a 2.5" DP and test. As of right now, I have no way to tune my car at all and it ran in the 11-1, 10.8-1 range on the wideband. So, there's quite a bit there that I think will help.

Phil1320
12.02 and comin for you...again