Cam Timing Help...?

[AcIdBuRn02ZTS]

Hey alls... Ive been searching and working all day and cant come up with a solid answer...

I'm working on a 99 neon with the 420a motor...

The water pump on the car was starting to make a bit of noise (65k on the clock) so i decided it was time to change out the timing belt and everything else while i was at it...

I purchased the mechanical litens conversion kit to delete the hydraulic tensioner... pulled everything apart... installed the new waterpump, new cam seals, modified the back cam cover for the new tensioner... re-installed the cam gears and installed the new tensioner and idler pullies...

here is where im having trouble... i attempt to line the cams up and i cant get them right... with the crank on the tdc mark... and the intake dead on centerline... im within half a tooth of getting the exhaust cam to line up (the car runs like this... idles fine... but makes no power and for some reason my CAI has become extremely loud up top... so i know something is off...)

here are a few pics of what i mean...






i used a gates blue belt instead of the belt that came with the kit.... no matter what i do... i cant get the exhaust cam to line up on center with the intake cam... if i retard the exhaust cam one tooth... it is a half tooth off in the opposite direction as it is in the pictures above...

i'm out of ideas... the car has been apart 4 different times now.... it'll start and idle fine... but on the road you can definately tell something is off... i just dont understand what im doing wrong...

ive searched the neon forums as well but figured some insight form you guys wouldnt hurt either since several dsm's run the same motor and can use the same conversion setup.

please help!!
thanks
-Chris

[bullettdsm]

I'm looking and thinking that both of your cam gears are off. When you put your staight edge up, does it also cut the cam bolts heads in half (on both of the gears)?

MB

[AcIdBuRn02ZTS]

as far as i can tell... yes..

im starting to think the same thing... it just doesnt make sence why one cam would line up and one would'nt... even the teeth dont line up like most ive seen do... im going to attempt to center punch the bolts dead center so i know the straight edge is right... but i dont know if thats going to make the difference

any idea on how to get them in line more accurately?

-Chris

[bullettdsm]

Well, the way I normally do this, I set the cams in their proper places (without having the belt on anything). Then I put the belt on and use a "quick clamp" across both gears to keep everything in place. Then I thread etc. (leaving the crank a little before TDC to allow for movement when tensioning up the adjuster).

You didn't by any chance remove a lot of material off of the head. I took off .020 on my NA and the alignment is a little tricky.

Funny thing is though. Usually when you are off a tooth the idle isn't smooth. Its rough like you have a cam in there.

MB

Also, just had a thought on something I have seen over the years. Is it possible that the dowel pin on the timing gear is messed up? Possibly slipped a little or "scrunched" (yeah a technical term, lol) a little during instalation?

[rush2252]

remember your going to have deflection between the cam gears before you start the motor. If done correctly you should be able to line the CAM gears up, then set the crank to TDC and work the slackaround to the tensioner side. Ive never done the modification to swap tensioners but I ran into a similar problem on my 99GS. Your probably not accounting for the deflection allowed to have the belt properly tensioned.

[AcIdBuRn02ZTS]

its back apart now... i had the cam gears off and there was a slight amount of play in both gears on the pins... it was that way when i took them off to replace the seals... the play is very very slight... but there is some... im gonna pull them back off and check the pins

i never thought to use a clamp on the gears to hold them in place... i'll see if it works...

the motor is otherwise stock... its the wifes dd... it has the "3.0 intake mod" which is basically a cai... other then that... no mods as of yet.

how ive routed the belt so far is as follows...

crank is lined up with groove on gear (1/2 tooth off tdc)... belt goes on crank... then tightly around water pump... then ajust the intake cam and slide belt on... keep belt pulled tight while adjusting exhaust cam... slide belt on... then work the belt down around the tensioner and turn the motor over a few times once tension is set... and this is what ive ended up with...

i have a feeling its something very simple that is specific to the 420a that im just missing or overlooking.

thanks guys
-AcId-

-EDIT-
the pins seem to be fine... same very little play they had in them when i pulled it apart the first time...

[AcIdBuRn02ZTS]

here is what ive came up with...

i center punched the cam bolts... routed the belt off the crank to the water pump and around the idler then pulled it tight... then i adjusted the intake cam and slid the belt on... adjusted the exhaust cam and slid the belt on... worked the belt around the tensioner and adjusted belt tension... here is what i get...



and the crank....


the crank is slightly misaligned to the arrow by less then half a tooth... is this the way it should be?? should i pull the #1 plug and verify tdc instead of using the crank marks?

-AcId-

[rush2252]

I believe once you roll the crank to align the marks you might be 1 tooth off on the intake. Its hard to tell from the pics. Try tightening everything and rolling the motor over 5 or 6 rotations by hand and double checking your work.

[AcIdBuRn02ZTS]

i found my problem and i feel quite stupid... i knew it would be something simple that is 420a specific...

i decided to say to hell with the timing marks on the crank... pulled number one plug and found true tdc... i noticed the tooth on the crank didnt line up with the timing mark any more... as i looked at the crank pulley... i hit my head on the fender when i realized the whole damn time i was trying to line the mark on the block up with the tooth when the mark on the pulley is on the edge of the tooth and not on center...

once i found true tdc... i found that the exhaust cam was one tooth off.... bumped it one tooth and everything lines up dead on with true tdc using the straw method which believe it or not... lines up the mark on the block with the mark on the pulley...

i cant believe i wasted my day off because i was overlooking that slight misalignment...

thanks for the help guys... i should have just slowed down and paid more attention the first time and i wouldnt have had this problem...

-AcId-