E-85 and DSM Compatablity

[95blackGsTurbo]

I just started running it in my car but I ordered special O-rings for my fuel injectors and for the fuel rail. Replaced the rubber parts of the fuel lines and replaced the rubber on the fuel pump. Going to tune for 10.5:1. I will let you all know how it goes. After about 4 months on gonna take everything apart and check it out.

 

[dis_ill_usion]

who the #### just put all that shit on my post??

usually moderators will do that when they feel the need....Defiant likes to do that from time to time

 

[Red91EclipseGSX]

I intend to convert my car to flex fuel and modify the engine for about as high an output as possible while still being streetable. I currently have an all original, purchased new, '91 GSX which has not been run since '00, with ~ 80k on it. I will need to change out all rubber parts of fuel system anyway. With the 15% gasoline and other additives in the blend, will aluminum corrosion still be a problem, I have been using E-10 since car was new without problems or any signs of corrosion inside the fuel system, including the fuel rail and injectors. Also what is the optimum A/F ratio for E-85, about how high a boost can I use with stock compression pistons, and what timing differences will be needed. I will need to be able switch between E-10 and E-85 as there are only 2 E-85 stations in the area. BTW the station owner says his E-85 is subsidized and will be priced no higher than $.05 below plus for at least the next 2 years.

 

[polarmoment]

No, Ethanol cannot be used for extended periods of time on vehicles other than Flex Fuel Vehicles. Yes, E85 is a mix of 200 proof alcohol with 15% racegas (as we used to mix it anyway). The alcohol will eat rubber components in your fuel line and will destroy aluminum as well, we had an aluminum gas tank that developed a sludge in the buttom, which turned out to be aluminum and ultimately had many holes develop. We did the conversion on a 600cc Ninja motor, it requires the use of all stainless fittings and a FFV compatible fuel pump (we used one from a FFV Ford Taurus). You can install Viton O-rings in all locations that it will contact the fuel (injectors, etc). Another issue arises with the AFPR and injectors, but the manufacturer will have information regarding whether or not the unit will work with alcohol. We ended up having to replace our AFPR (Aeromotive) diaphragm periodically, and we used RC injectors.

Granted, you can run E85 for a while before it will eat/corrode your system, but over time, it's a big no-no. But, yeah, there's nothing like the smell of E85 exhaust, makes race day all the more fun.

i'm guessing you ran this in a formula SAE car? our school ran a turbo 250 on M85 back in 1999. one thing about the corrosion though is that it's due (as was stated before) to the fuel's electrical conductivity and the presence of dissimilar metals. the fuels sold at stations (at least around here) have extremely low conductivity, about 60% lower than what the department of energy recommends to avoid severe corrosion. if you mixed the fuel yourself, perhaps it had a much higher conductivity which facilitated the corrosion?


also, most fuel system o-rings are made of buna-N which is classified as resistant to ethanol up to 160*F (these CAN be replaced with viton which is resistant to 350*F- look to www.mcmaster.com for viton o-rings). natural and hard rubber are also classified as resistant to ethanol up to 160*F, and since fuel temperatures rarely reach that until they get to the rail, it shouldn't be much of a problem. silicone is NOT rated for any resistance to ethanol, so your fuel pressure regulator would likely be eaten up pretty fast.

it's good stuff if you tune your car to run on it.

 

[MNGSX]

Pretty much just ignore the vast majority of the people here...

Look at the university and formula SAE projects..

This report shows SIMPLE ways to solve the very few problems.

http://www.westbioenergy.org/reports/55019/55019_final.htm

My car was easy

1. DSM = plastic fuel tank...
2. Upgraded fuel system Braided SS feed and returns. Cant hurt em
3. Tank sump. HUGE ASS external pump and FPR both ethanol tolerant. URL Link uses paxton alky spec reg.
4. Had the fuel rail anodized... Thats right just have it effing anodized and you are fine.
5. Less than $200 for matched 1680cc injectors. Formula 1 uses for METHANOL so ethanol is like nothing to them.. fiveomotorsports..

There were other mods but those address most of the bitching on here...

Talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill.....

 

[sickfast2ndgen]

Less than $200 for matched 1680cc injectors. Formula 1 uses for METHANOL so ethanol is like nothing to them..

Formula 1 uses unleaded fuel.
http://www.formula1.com/insight/rulesandregs/14/486.html

Other than that minor detail, the only problem with a conversion is you lose the intent. the idea was to have flex fuel. but if you have 1680cc injectors, i doubt it will run on straight gas without some serious fuel control that can make the distinction. any way around that short of a full standalone with separate maps?

 

[MNGSX]

Sorry I meant INDY..... METHANOL...

Bosch INDY injector.... etc...

Great more people telling me how to do something they have not done but I already have.......

Other than that minor detail, the only problem with a conversion is you lose the intent. the idea was to have flex fuel. but if you have 1680cc injectors, i doubt it will run on straight gas without some serious fuel control that can make the distinction. any way around that short of a full standalone with separate maps?

The article I posted said dedicated E85 vehicle....

I have ran the 1680's on gas... Rough idle.... A few top gas cars run them....

You need a stand alone... Honestly a stand alone beats the other methods so bad that I think its more important than cams or an intake....

As for flex capability I am looking at the fuel sensors from an FFV... In my case I want to use it to be able to run higher mixes of ethanol in the summer and at the track...

 

[sickfast2ndgen]

Sorry I meant INDY..... METHANOL...

Bosch INDY injector.... etc...

Great more people telling me how to do something they have not done but I already have.......



The article I posted said dedicated E85 vehicle....

I have ran the 1680's on gas... Rough idle.... A few top gas cars run them....

You need a stand alone... Honestly a stand alone beats the other methods so bad that I think its more important than cams or an intake....

As for flex capability I am looking at the fuel sensors from an FFV... In my case I want to use it to be able to run higher mixes of ethanol in the summer and at the track...

you better check yourself...

i wasn't insulting, and you dont have to go there either. plus, what do you know about my experience, hmm?

also, its worth noting that adding a full standalone gets away from the ease and cost effectiveness of switching over in the first place.

 

[MNGSX]

you better check yourself...

i wasn't insulting, and you dont have to go there either. plus, what do you know about my experience, hmm?

also, its worth noting that adding a full standalone gets away from the ease and cost effectiveness of switching over in the first place.

So you have high HP DSM that you drive daily (for the summer) on E85?

My thing with this car is going to be low 10's on a car that can be DD and road triped... We have like 160 E85 pumps.

If cost and ease of modifications are paramount get out of DSM's... Actually if done right they are pretty cheap as truely fast cars go and reliable as compared to an FD or something...

Making big HP on gas is 10x harder than the conversion.. Once converted it beats the crap out of pump gas on the dyno....

A full standalone in the right hands plus WB02 rocks on any performance DSM....

As for true flex fuel.... Less powerfull cars would be easier.. Perhaps WB02 and some creative AEM programming could do it w/o a fuel sensor... I have seen WB02 AEM cars out perform cars with piggybacks and ECU mods like link on the street with more driveablilty since gas can vary.. E10 and now E20 in MN at the pump.... The WB can trim to put the AFR right no matter what pump you got the 93 from...

With a FFV I think the fuel sensor is needed if even just as an input to control the timing curve... You can run a ass load more timing on the E85.

On mine...

Factory hp was ~220 on 450's... so to run ~ the same IDC at 600+hp I would need ~1200cc or so... 30-40% more fuel for E-85 depending on comparing to E10 93 or race gas... Now you can see where the 1680cc injector selection came from.... They are also seriously alky proof which is also handy... The BR conquest makes so much power they run 1680s on race gas....

 

[polarmoment]

http://www.westbioenergy.org/reports/55019/55019_final.htm

hehe that link has been in my favorites for about 8 months now. excellent project. there's another UNL project on ethanol as well.

i really can't believe the things people think about ethanol.. the people who have reseached it are jumping at the chance to convert to it, and the people who know little about it are saying it's horrible stuff. imagine that...

 

[Speedy6963]

you guys just now catching on to E85???



I was running that in my 98 talon back in 2001, nice having a cheap fuel you can run 25psi on daily

 

[MNGSX]

I have been running it a while.. 2002 or so... was busy for a while.. Military.... and thought about it when I started on the car in 2000 but no time.....

 

[gixrman]

Is it only available in the midwest? How can I find out if its available in my area? Would I be able to run it like a W/I setup and just lean out with DSMlink once boost comes on? And with the cooling affect possibly eliminate the IC?

 

[gsx951]

Is it only available in the midwest? How can I find out if its available in my area? Would I be able to run it like a W/I setup and just lean out with DSMlink once boost comes on? And with the cooling affect possibly eliminate the IC?

The is only 1 station in the entire Detroit metro area and a total of 2 in all of Michigan.
I'd love to convert but until there is resonable distribution, I don't dare.
Yes, now I know how the guys in California feel about us with 93~94 at the pump and them stuck with 91 RFG.

 

[Savage Talon]

There is one pump in all of CA for E85. And we are the smog capitol of the US.

 

[seth98es]

WWW.e85fuel.com has a locator, not sure how updated it is though.

 

[4G63 For Me]

Interesting information. Allegedly there is a station not too far from me that has it (I'm still skeptical). Maybe I'll go fill up and see what happens.

 

[MNGSX]

If you just fill up and see what happens I see a melted piston thread in your near future..

It takes a full fuel system upgrade..

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

WTF I've been running it for a year now. Tuned of course but mostly stock fuel system lines besides the rubber line from the filter to the rail. No problems whatsoever. Just changed HG to put a better one on and pistons looks clean...Hardly any carbon on them at all and no scoring of the cylinder walls. Getting like 3 less MPG though.

 

[MNGSX]

you will probably get a yr or so out of the OE reglator before it gets cloged via galvanization produced particles...

Gotta anodize and run alky pump, lines and FPR in the long run..

Its true however that as long as you richen it up you wont will run fine just doing that for a good while but it still will need to be done right eventually..

 

[4G63 For Me]

There is a pump here at a Farmcrest that has 93 Octane. I use it frequently. It specifically states it contains Ethanol, which is interesting, because somebody told me the other day my exhaust smells quite unique. Makes sense I suppose. Now I'm concerned though. I should really check to see how much ethanol that 93 really does contain.

 

[gsx951]

There is a pump here at a Farmcrest that has 93 Octane. I use it frequently. It specifically states it contains Ethanol, which is interesting, because somebody told me the other day my exhaust smells quite unique. Makes sense I suppose. Now I'm concerned though. I should really check to see how much ethanol that 93 really does contain.

It should be posted on the pump but it's almost certainly 10% ethanol.

 

[gixrman]

WWW.e85fuel.com has a locator, not sure how updated it is though.

Thanks theres one 5 min. away from me.

 

[pgt1996]

Ressurecting an old thread....

The link to the westbioenergy site is dead, does anyone happen to have this information saved?

Also, has anyone else had any luck finding an ethanol compatable pump for their DSM (without resorting to a huge external)?

Thank you,

 

[punkdivo78]

Yeah, this stuff is now Nationally being marketed and the commercials are becoming more frequent on TV. The info for compatibility of specific cars still sucks considering how close it is to being everywhere. This thread is proof that no one has the exact answers. I got dizzy reading everyones posts which half of them contradicted the other,. My buddy works at a local gas station and said the gas rep told them to get ready for 87 octane gas to reach $3.50/gal here within a month or so.