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turbo off manifold? standalone oil system?

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tryingtofixthis

Proven Member
36
0
Mar 16, 2014
columbus, Ohio
just bored throwing out a couple ideas something to talk about or think on.

was looking at the down pipe on a stock 2g 420a and the 2 bolts down low that mount the pipe would be perfect for a small off manifold turbo, some mounts could easily be fabed and its still high enough to be protected. radiator and front end could be adjust to make more space most likely. down pipe would be a cinch since you would only have to go a few inches for the curve, could cut and weld on a flange on an aftermarket front pipe frome the turbo. my though is use an oil cooler and another metal P/S reservoir and put a P/s pump where the A/C is using a similar sized pulley for a standalone oil system. a lot of people worry about the oil pressure but my thought is jhave the pump push the oil into the cooler then to the res to "fall" back down into the turbo thus eliminating problems with oil getting pushed out seals.(would also use some kind of pressure regulator.)

just thinking about the best junkyard build, eclipse is pretty cool i could build some pretty cool stuff with all the interchangeable parts and pieces. just thinking about this equal length header i got at the junkyard for 10$ and how i could mod it to accept turbo. and how common and cheap these are anyways.

hell not that i think about it i wonder if the A/C itself could be modded for the standalone oil sysyem cause the A/C clutch could be used to monitor the oil pressure.
 
I didn't really follow your oiling scheme but you would need to address the oil drain. It won't gravity feed mounting a turbo that low. Also the turbo needs a steady supply of pressurized oil. So it won't last long having oil "fall" into it from a reservoir. You probably need to understand a turbos needs before u design a system.

Basically it's a stupid idea and people would do it that way if there was any advantage.
 
there is advantages. i could easily point out. you give up hope too easy. im not sure why you say "it wont" gravity feed" and i do understand turbos. very well. the "gravity feed" is not meant to be not pressurized just to add length to stabilize and lower pressure. res would be up by strut tower

another thing i just though about that would actually probably be the problem solver for a standalone system is something i saw for the first time on a handicapped equipped van. and its commonly used on watering systems in the country.

seriously if this is a hated on topic ill let it go. i like to dream what can i say.

the main advantage to the idea is cooler temps at turbo exhaust and engine. while also being able to maintain standard oil pressures without adding another accessory the oil pump has to feed...
 
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So a closed loop system for oiling the turbo? Its own small electrical pump(or mech), an oil cooler, a reservoir? I suppose this could be done with absolutely zero airpockets in the system so long as the pump was sufficiently pushing in oil while pulling it out at the same time.

I really dont see the point in this, as others have said, but yes it can be done. They DO mount turbos all the way in the back of the car on some v8s. Soooooo, they have to pump that oil back up to the pan too. So, in essence, surely its been done in one way or another.

Seeing how well even large turbos fit in an eclipse engine bay makes me wonder why you would ever want to mount the turbo in such a way that a simple feed from the block/head/ofh and gravity fed drain wouldnt work for you. Theres a reason everyone does it like this, the simplest way is usually the best way.

The benefits would not be that great. Plus with the pressure variations on a 0* day and a 100* day you might be designing a very complex system with no foreseeable gains over stock placement/drain.
You want the oil to be cooler? Simple get an ext oil cooler thats massive and put a fan on it. Thats a lot easier dont ya think?
 
^agreed, if you wanna be sneaky and have a turbo "rear mount" style, ok, no problem, but the charge air pipe to bring the boost up to the engine will be retarded. a sandwhich plate on the oil filter housing will be needed to run oil (or maybe a T off the factory oil dumby light sensor location) but to get the oil back to the pan you will need some sort of inline pump, to physically pump the return oil back to the engine as gravity wont work and neither will the pressure from the oil on its "entrance". Like above mentioned, this is stupid. wanna turbo it? Get a real kit.
 
there is advantages. i could easily point out.

the main advantage to the idea is cooler temps at turbo exhaust and engine. while also being able to maintain standard oil pressures without adding another accessory the oil pump has to feed...

Your points on stabilizing the oil pressure make no sense whatsoever.

As far as the cooler exhaust temps at the turbo, that doesn't make any sense either since by definition a turbo uses wasted energy in the form of super hot gases and uses it to create a dense oxygen rich charge. Why would YOU want to dissipate exhaust heat when everyone else is coating their header to keep as much heat going to the turbine as possible?

And can you really consider an oil feed line an "accessory". I mean you are talking about replacing it with a multiple piece system. Now that is an accessory. And why would you want to add all this complexity and leakage points to somthing so crucial as a turbos oil supply.

And all this is assuming you aren't running a water cooled chra. That is another thing to address if you are someone who likes water.
 
good response. i suppose you are correct temp efficacy, could be countered with a simple solution of a large oil cooler and fan .

and your right its much simpler to run lines. i guess i did phrase my self as ultimate junkyard engine, i suppose your right tho, a stand alone oil system isnt really something that can be done efficiently (fiscally) for a basic turbo setup. more something to be geared for racing specifically.

so i suppose it is a pointless venture for the average guy doing a turbo conversion.

also from what i understand it better to mount off manifold. but then again i guess that depends on what you trying to do and how you build the engine.

okay. i think that clears it up. its possible but not really all that useful in a basic setup.

okay so how about wrapping exhaust manifold pipes in copper tubing and running coolant through them. was thinking about wort chiller and water cooled exhaust manifolds crossed my mind.
 
LOL WTF is the goal?

A turbo is designed the way is for what it is for. You need to look at other engineers work, they make these the way they are for a reason...!!!


We all understand your not an engineer and you have long way to go. these newbies post are quite entertaining.
 
Your points on stabilizing the oil pressure make no sense whatsoever.

As far as the cooler exhaust temps at the turbo, that doesn't make any sense either since by definition a turbo uses wasted energy in the form of super hot gases and uses it to create a dense oxygen rich charge. Why would YOU want to dissipate exhaust heat when everyone else is coating their header to keep as much heat going to the turbine as possible?

And can you really consider an oil feed line an "accessory". I mean you are talking about replacing it with a multiple piece system. Now that is an accessory. And why would you want to add all this complexity and leakage points to somthing so crucial as a turbos oil supply.

And all this is assuming you aren't running a water cooled chra. That is another thing to address if you are someone who likes water.

i like longevity as well as power. funny thing is i wrote my last post b4 seeing this LOL.
and if i was doing above post it would be for N/A or after turbo. or on intake side.

an accessory is an accessory, no matter the source of power. i mean what would you call a SC. only difference is instead of tapping into a pump built for a specific values pre-calculated, i would be replacing a useless system or tapping into the intentional full output with the system like a S/C.

this is why i think many gear driven accessory systems have been eliminated.

now with all that said. i will say you right. but no need to be so... direct? just use you imagination friend. i enjoy a devils advocate, but i think your being a little too literal for me.
 
and your right its much simpler to run lines. i guess i did phrase my self as ultimate junkyard engine, i suppose your right tho, a stand alone oil system isnt really something that can be done efficiently (fiscally) for a basic turbo setup. more something to be geared for racing specifically.

so i suppose it is a pointless venture for the average guy doing a turbo conversion.

.

I'm going to step out on a limb here and say wrong again.

Look at the oiling setup on an old turbocharged Porsche prototype racer or a 935/6. They put more thought into the oil system than anyone seeing as they had watercooled heads at best. Controlling oil temps was high on their priority list.
 
^wanna turbo it? Get a real kit.
no i probably wont turbo this car. and i would LOL.
Your points on stabilizing the oil pressure make no sense whatsoever.
i no water pressure better than oil pressure perhaps my theories are wrong. but i was just thinking the basics.
Are you talking about a boat engine? Cause if your not that is stupid.
well i did see things about boat engines like that but i was just thinking cooler exhaust gasses the denser they are the more can be flowed out of the exhaust.
We all understand your not an engineer and you have long way to go.

i know just learning. im definitely not an engineer. i might be able to fix cars, and build cars and fab up some parts but im far from engineer. but if i dont ask the questions i wont get the answers. sometimes to get that point you got to ask the dumb questions. shit im teaching a 35 year old how to do brakes. and they act like its rocket science. but i dont judge him cause it was easy for me, because to be the best is not because it was learned easily, it because it was learned in general. so i may have learned brakes in one day for example, and another person may have learned in 3, but the person who learned in 3 might be faster or do a better job than me. because its not relevant to ones ability to learn, but their ability to use what they have learned.
 
When you say gear driven I assume you mean belt driven. The reason oem's are getting away from belt driven accessory a is for fuel economy. Their lines need to be at astounding figures by 2025.

But to your point? What turbo specific pArt is being belt or gear driven? The oil pump and water pump are going to be there wether their is a turbo or not.
 
im talking about older, like a lot older cars. like gear driven fuel pumps, distributors, water pumps ect.

but good point i see a lot of cars with electric P/S now days.

shoot as far as gas goes. im gonna build an alchohol daily driver and replace all the gaskets once every couple of years, and brew my own fuel. i made a promise to myself as a kid, i would NEVER pay 5$ a gal. and we are getting too close anymore.
 
As far as the cooler exhaust temps at the turbo, that doesn't make any sense either since by definition a turbo uses wasted energy in the form of super hot gases and uses it to create a dense oxygen rich charge.

Does the turbo use high temperature or flow/pressure? Obviously as temperature drops, so does pressure, so it makes sense that the owner would want a blanket over the turbo (as well as to keep underhood temps lower). What if water is introduced right before the turbo? In 'theory' fine mist would flash to steam instantly and create more pressure, therefore spinning the turbo faster. For this example let's imagine that a squirt of water is added to exhaust pipe of each cylinder individually while that cylinder's exhaust valve is closed to prevent the steam from interfering with gases coming out of the cylinder.

Why would you want this: lower underhood temps, higher engine efficiency, higher turbo RPM.

Why it may not work: fine mist might not have enough time to flash to steam; steam build-up in exhaust might not allow exhaust gasses to escape cylinders properly, therefore not allowing fresh fuel/air nix to fill cylinders correctly; steam might corrode turbo's turbine, therefore considerably reducing it's life span.
 
WTF did I just read...




. i made a promise to myself as a kid, i would NEVER pay 5$ a gal. and we are getting too close anymore.


E-85 is $2.69 where I'm at.. buy a flex fuel car.
Or a bicycle.


I assure you the costs of brewing your own gas, running a "standalone oil system", and wrapping copper tube around your exhaust( which would excessively heat up the coolant rather than cool exhaust gases) will burn a hole in your pocket faster than having to deal with the price of gas.
 
Could always wrap tubes around the header. Water or air would get pre-heated as passes through the tubes.

Would say that normally there is no need for a check valve in the exhaust and also a check valve would create enough back pressure to interfere with gasses flowing out. Might not seem like much, but even length of pipe can negatively affect back pressure. Back pressure is more important in two-stroke engines though.

EDIT: Speaking of fuel efficiency, check out ecomodder.com They are all about that stuff :)
 
slick idea. keeping the water prssurized and heated would help to be able to flash steam. water may not be the best choice. but if interals of turbo exposed to water are oiled regularly,l or some system to inject oil after turning the car off. plus it would have to be an on off thing cause if the cars not hot youll be pouring water down the turbo. as for back flow make me wonder why exhaust don't have a one way valve.

i wonder if compressed air would work better. or other liquids.
found this Unusual Working Fluids.

Could always wrap tubes around the header. Water or air would get pre-heated as passes through the tubes.

Would say that normally there is no need for a check valve in the exhaust and also a check valve would create enough back pressure to interfere with gasses flowing out. Might not seem like much, but even length of pipe can negatively affect back pressure. Back pressure is more important in two-stroke engines though.

EDIT: Speaking of fuel efficiency, check out ecomodder.com They are all about that stuff :)
you could also make the res out of a conductive material, and place it near a heat source like the radiator.
would it be possible to create a valve that partially closes at what is peak back pressure and fully closes under very high pressures? spring valve seems capable. i had though about that.

ill check them out, im not super big into fuel efficiency. but i do care. i think there can be a balance between power and efficiency. as well as i think everyone, or rather everyone who wants one and can afford one should have have a car for fun that sucks gas a osu student drinks beer, and a decent mileage but fun reasonable car.
 
Alcohol added to water will bring down it's boiling point.
Could just run water/meth injection system and spray pre-engine. That way you don't have to have dedicated timing system and can get away with having one nozzle instead of four.

Want something fun AND good on fuel? Get a motorbike. 50+ MPG and 4 second 0-60 MPH. Can't beat that!
 
I didn't read the whole thread, but has anyone brought up the "remote turbo system"? That puts the turbo about 3/4 of the way down the exhaust... I think that failed years back... sounds like this is about down the same road.

Why not buy manifolds/ install kits that are plentiful for this platform? Isn't a cast log manifold like $150 for this thing.... another $75 in oil lines and fittings, maybe $400 for tuning and injectors.... sounds like more in test and fail in the long run than it would be to just jump in and do it the right way???
 
WTF did I just read...
E-85 is $2.69 where I'm at.. buy a flex fuel car.
Or a bicycle.
I assure you the costs of brewing your own gas, running a "standalone oil system", and wrapping copper tube around your exhaust( which would excessively heat up the coolant rather than cool exhaust gases) will burn a hole in your pocket faster than having to deal with the price of gas.

A.i will make an alchohol car its cheap if you know what your doing.
B. these ideas where just for fun, and was looking fo input.
C. your doubting my intelligence. i could make any of these work. and do it for under a 1000$

i may or may not seem bright be cause of my lack on flourish with the written word. but i get lazy and describing and rethinking takes to much time. most people sit and think a while b4 posting i think as i post i treat a forum like a conversation somewhat. people like you get aggressive on the net because you take the time to think about things, research them then post or dont post. if i want to research i will, if i think somebody is out there that already knows the answers i will go to them. it simpler than trying to do tons of research to answer my own questions. i have learned probably 5x more off this thread, than the research i would have done in the same amount of time.

so efficiency wise, this thread was very much so. it allowed me to do other research for things, that could also be asked. but i have more knowledge about and can answer myself with less effort because they are questions i already have the answers too. but i must use my knowledge and research to figure out. for example i was looking for srt4 pistons, and tools, and the types of tools i need to be and use to complete machining work and replacing internals on various engines open deck, floating vs. non floating pistons, silent shaft balancing shafts, split crankcase, hell i learned so much ive forgot stuff. im always learning.

you dont see me on here saying, how do i remove valves? what the tool called to do that? how do the pistons and rods disassemble? i did the research on what different things were and how to do it. because,
A. i already have the basic knowledge.
B. i have already talked to people and read books about doing these things.
C.it not a complicated scenario or hypothesis
 
The job of the turbo is simple, take exhaust, compress it, put it back into intake.
You want faster spool? Get a smaller turbo or a dual ball bearing, don't inject a watery mist into the compressor.

If you are looking at injecting water'alcohol/methanol into the system, the turbo is NOT the place to do it.
The whole purpose of injecting methanol/alcohol is to
1. Increase the octane, reducing the chance for knock and increasing horsepower.

The purpose of mixing water with meth/alcohol is to recude intake temperatures while preventing the good stuff from evaporating. Lower intake temperatures means the air is denser when it is compressed by the piston. Making the exhaust temp lower before it hits the turbo by spraying water into it will not likely yield favorable results as the turbo is just going to heat it right back up.



Simply put if you want colder air in the engine make it happen at the intake, where it is entering the combustion chamber.

Does it matter to me if you do any of these things to your car? Quite honestly no, but this sight's whole purpose is to allow DSM performance enthusiasts to share correct information and productive ideas with eachother.
I'm not doubting your intelligence, I'm doubting your common sense.

So please, inject some water in your turbo, and wrap your header in coolant filled copper tubes. I'll be waiting for the thread you post when your car catches on fire.



& FYI. the Radiator isn't a heat source, it's an exchanger. Air flows through the channels to help reduce coolant temps.
 
you could also make the res out of a conductive material, and place it near a heat source like the radiator.
would it be possible to create a valve that partially closes at what is peak back pressure and fully closes under very high pressures?

Please re read this valve you want to invent and think about what you are saying. All the crap is silly complex crap, none of it operating or harnessing any physics or phenomenon, but this one really stuck out to me.

Ohh and since it got left in the quote, a radiator is not a heat source. It is a heat exchanger meant to dissipate heat. Remove it. It's the exact opposite of what you say it is.

Maybe I am being too blunt but this thread has reached a new level. I think I am losing brain power as it goes on. I am going to be retarded by the end. Literally.

Btw I'm am no engineer. I am not a mechanic by trade, I don't even have much education. I am just a car guy.

Does the turbo use high temperature or flow/pressure? Obviously as temperature drops, so does pressure, so it makes sense that the owner would want a blanket over the turbo (as well as to keep underhood temps lower). What if water is introduced right before the turbo? In 'theory' fine mist would flash to steam instantly and create more pressure, therefore spinning the turbo faster. For this example let's imagine that a squirt of water is added to exhaust pipe of each cylinder individually while that cylinder's exhaust valve is closed to prevent the steam from interfering with gases coming out of the cylinder.

Why would you want this: lower underhood temps, higher

I have a better idea. Just make a few precise cuts in your headgasket when you install it and dump the already heated water straight into the combustion chambers to "steamcharge" your car. You guys come up with these crazy elaborate systems for your ideas when most engineers look for the simplest way to accomplish a goal.
 
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