Able to get low 20s with no knock

[bcjjones]

On my stock 1g 6 bolt im able to run all the way up to 22-23 degrees of timing at 10.5-11.5 afrs at wot creeping to 23 psi and falling to about 18 psi by redline.

Basically on the two higher (11 and 12) load rows at 3k rpm im at 15 and 14 respectively. Then it increases by 1 degree for each rpm column until 7000 rpms toping out at 23 and 22 degrees.

Seems like everyone has to lowee timing on a 1g to avoid knock, while i've added quite a bit. It does knock, at least it shows knock when i run too lean. So I know the knock sensor works and isnt showing the usual black stuff on it when they go bad.

Am I just getting lucky, or is that just an insane amount of timing?

 

[clipto]

Every car is a little different and most people have different supporting mods. So it varies from car to car. That is a pretty rich air/fuel mixture so it would handle that boost, but I bet if you lean it out you will make more power, but then comes the knock.

 

[JusMX141]

So many variables- turbo type (larger = easier to run higher boost without knock), fuel type, intercooler efficiency, etc. There's a lot more to do with it than just the tune- two equally-equipped cars may end up having two completely different setups.

 

[boost97gst]

I wish i could get me some of that high timing with no knock. Id, say be glad you can do that. Its a good thing. Try and get a good 11:1 afr and stick with that. I think thats the "go-to" afr for boost most of the time. Then, if you can get away with it, add more timing or more boost and see what happens.
Im finding with my setup i have to look at around 10.9:1 to be the sweet spot. Im surprised by that cause i thought i have a slightly large turbo. Im a newb tho

 

[bcjjones]

Well yea I do understand every car, even with the exact same setup, will have a different tune and "sweet spot." I'd say im newer to dsms and boosted cars in general but I feel as if I understand them pretty well. Maybe im just being paranoid. I just wanted to make sure no one weny crazy on me and said im way off base with that kind of timing. As long as that didnt happen, and it didn't, im happy.

Ill probably end up replacing my KS just to be saf!

 

[MY1GDSM]

There is something called MBT just because you can run x amount of timing doesn't mean the car will make more power or that the gains are worth it or that because someone else has an issue running x amount of timing a x amount of boost means you shouldn't that's why they call it tuning...

Regardless there is quite a bit info not here and even then your statement is pretty general 10.5 to 11.5 is a pretty wide range and even then at what load and rpm, is x afr and x timing... I'm sure you see where I'm going with this.

Every car is a little different and most people have different supporting mods. So it varies from car to car. That is a pretty rich air/fuel mixture so it would handle that boost, but I bet if you lean it out you will make more power, but then comes the knock.

This first part of this is of coarse true and going to be the recurring theme of the thread in response to what they said... .

BUT, with out seeing the tune and a log that's bold statement about the AFR... .

As they didn't even say what fuel they are running or whether they are 11.5 under full boost or 10.5... and I'm sure you can see where I'm goona go with that as well...

 

[YZFR1]

It's funny to see people trying to cram in as much timing as they can before hitting knock and be happy about it

That would work on a supra engine but not a dsm

 

[MY1GDSM]

That would work on a supra engine but not a dsm

Why? may I ask would that be?

 

[bcjjones]

Just to clarify here fellas, im not an idiot. I've been around cars, and worked on cars my entire life. Including airplanes, rebuilding complete engines. Tuning is a little knew, but not so new that I consider myself a newbie by any means. I've learned a lot in a short amount of time as far as tuning goes. I just wanted to make sure, that I am not the only one able to run that kind of timing. I know what my afrs are, and at what load and rpm. At full boost im almost dead 11 to 1 afr. All I wanted to know, and make sure of, is that what im doing isnt insane.

And to YZFR1...Its funny to see ppl who act like they know what their talking about, only from reading what other people have to say. Not from experience

 

[Arthris]

Ive been able to get the same amount of timing as well. On 93 93/methanol and E85. never had a issue with knock. Car pulled very well for what it had as well. Only way to tell if its doing any good is to get it on a dyno and see what numbers you get at that much then dial it down and see if it changes

 

[bcjjones]

Ahh finally some useful information. Im running straight 93, Glad someone else has run around the same timing. Mine pulls very hard. I dont think lowering it a couple degrees across the board feels onmy butt dyno to pull any better. When I get some extra cash, in the process of selling my home and buying another one, ill get on a dyno and see what happens

 

[YZFR1]

Why? may I ask would that be?

Because 2jz's are knock limited engines, meaning that the mbt is past the knock threshhold. Suburu's boxer engiens are like that too from what i heard.

And to YZFR1...Its funny to see ppl who act like they know what their talking about, only from reading what other people have to say. Not from experience

I was just teasing you man! My appologies if i came off like a smart ass, i'm glad to hear that your car pulls like a freighttrain

 

[MY1GDSM]

YZFR1, That was a rhetorical question... .

People don't run the timing that they can in a lot of cases, Because it's not the "Norm" or try to run off of modded factory maps like (IE Evo maps) that will never be anywhere close to the power potential of what the most motors can make IMO there are several various reasons for this that I don't have the time right now to get into... .

Maybe it would be a bit better to be literral about what your saying, because all I see you doing is contradicting yourself here but, let's not get too off topic... .



OP, I'd be happy to take a look at your tune if your and give you some input on it if you're interested as I'm always willing to help people like that that try to help them selves or don't expet a hand out(time permitting)... Though might be a little bit before I could get back to you... . Jsut Email me at

<---my user name @Tuningservices.net

 

[My1GLaser]

If you don't have access to a dyno and don't trust the butt dyno then you can do some 70-90 mph comparisons. Depending on when you shift you might want to check 60-80 mph times instead.

Do a good 3rd gear pull check your acceleration time. Then make the changes and do it again. I try to do it under the same weather conditions and on the same stretch of road. I get a few datalogs and compare them. That will help you determine how your car is actually responding to the changes with real results.

 

[YZFR1]

Maybe it would be a bit better to be literral about what your saying, because all I see you doing is contradicting yourself here but, let's not get too off topic... .

I'm contradicting myself because i said that 4g63's are not knock limited so mbt is way before knock, where as, some other engines are what is called "knock limited" so their mbt is past the knock threshhold. Not sure what is so contradicting about that

 

[Calan]

I'm contradicting myself because i said that 4g63's are not knock limited so mbt is way before knock, where as, some other engines are what is called "knock limited" so their mbt is past the knock threshhold. Not sure what is so contradicting about that

I'm not sure what you are trying to say , but I'd bet that almost any turbo or supercharged engine is going to be knock limited, unless you are running race gas (or E85 to some extent). Even then, it would take a good intercooler, cool weather, and good tuning to hit MBT before knock.

 

[YZFR1]

4g63's are not knock limited because you stop making power way before hitting knock, being on pump gas or race gas. All the race gas is going to do is shift the mbt point. Check on supra forums, those guys can make power all the way until hitting knock because their mean best torque point is after they start making knock.

It's not new information, even my efi advanced instructor mentioned that.

 

[H@xtGSX]

ALL engines are knock limited... When you hear kaBOOM, oil blows up the windshield, and you see chunks of your pistons on the pavement behind you, you past the limit.

... sorry, I know that wasn't any help technically, but it made me laugh.

 

[Calan]

4g63's are not knock limited because you stop making power way before hitting knock, being on pump gas or race gas. All the race gas is going to do is shift the mbt point.

MBT is what it is...for a given amount of timing, AFR, and cylinder pressure (or heat) at any given operating point. Race gas doesn't shift the MBT point; although too much octane can actually lower torque output slightly. What higher octane does is shift the knock threshold higher, making it more likely that you can reach MBT.

If you can "easily" hit MBT on pump piss on an average turbo without knock (at all operating points), then you should be a professional tuner and teaching classes. .

 

[boost97gst]

I thought id throw this out there. Anectdotal evidence : I just adjusted my DA octanes to get about .2 richer where iwas getting about 2* knock on a 3rd gear pull. On the butt dyno, i LOST power. Go figure. It actually pulls harder when im seeing around 2-3 degrees knockret. Im honestly learning to tune, im no pro and still on evo8mod1 timing tables. Its interesting and makes me question things

 

[My1GLaser]

I thought id throw this out there. Anectdotal evidence : I just adjusted my DA octanes to get about .2 richer where iwas getting about 2* knock on a 3rd gear pull. On the butt dyno, i LOST power. Go figure. It actually pulls harder when im seeing around 2-3 degrees knockret. Im honestly learning to tune, im no pro and still on evo8mod1 timing tables. Its interesting and makes me question things

Check your 70-90 mph acceleration times and see if you actually lost power. If it pulls harder when you're leaner then lean it back out and pull a degree or 2 of timing where you were knocking. Should be faster after that.

 

[H@xtGSX]

Check your 70-90 mph acceleration times and see if you actually lost power. If it pulls harder when you're leaner then lean it back out and pull a degree or 2 of timing where you were knocking. Should be faster after that.

Actually, pull times is one of the best ways you can ascertain what a mod has done without additional equipment. I totally agree. That is how I would check it too. Just make sure you're not knock, knock, knockerin' on your motor heaven's door...

 

[boost97gst]

Will do, that was my plan. I figured leaner with less timing is better than richer with more timing. Tho, again this is pure butt dyno.