My new e85 16g setup!!

[turbotalon1g]

^i would rather believe 380ish for my car and go off of airflow.

E85, timing in the high teens at max, this car knocks like mad.
AFRs = in the 11s, i don't really care since it could be snowing anyday and i will be done driving the car.
Boost spike to 34 settles to 22psi.

 

[Black_Bullet]

^i would rather believe 380ish for my car and go off of airflow.

E85, timing in the high teens at max, this car knocks like mad.
AFRs = in the 11s, i don't really care since it could be snowing anyday and i will be done driving the car.
Boost spike to 34 settles to 22psi.

Wow, talk about tough love. I dont have snow seasons so I need my car reliable, and running consistenly all year round whether its a DD or not. Maybe your boost spike at 34lbs is too aggressive, or base timing may be off?
The 16g is just a flame thrower at that psi, especially if you dont have some monster uber efficent intercooler.

 

[JayRolla]

I set timing back to about 5* btdc and the car runs so much better. Forgot how much better cruising power is with the timing at normal. Also at wot it feels a lot better. Logger was dead so not sure where timing is or if its knocking but it does feel good. Should be around 25* at max.

 

[Black_Bullet]

I set timing back to about 5* btdc and the car runs so much better. Forgot how much better cruising power is with the timing at normal. Also at wot it feels a lot better. Logger was dead so not sure where timing is or if its knocking but it does feel good. Should be around 25* at max.

Might want to log it before you do any more hard pulls.

 

[JayRolla]

Might want to log it before you do any more hard pulls.

, I know, but Im really not scared. Everyone I know with e85 has ran lots of timing with no issues. If you go on the dsmlink forums most guys on e85 are hitting 28* timing with the timing sliders maxed out!!

 

[matthewdesigns]

Have you logged any airflow numbers lately? Or has your logger been dead for a while. I'm curious as to what you are seeing at that boost pressure compared to my setup. I got out this morning for a couple of third gear pulls and logged 36lbs/min at 30>24psi, on a stock catback . With my cutout open, I usually gain a couple of lbs/min, but I didn't have a chance to make any runs opened up for comparison.

 

[Black_Bullet]

, I know, but Im really not scared. Everyone I know with e85 has ran lots of timing with no issues. If you go on the dsmlink forums most guys on e85 are hitting 28* timing with the timing sliders maxed out!!

Even if it doesnt knock running that much timing and boost simply isnt safe.
You are probably reaching the point of dimishing returns already and when you cross that point you are actually loosing power from adding more timing AND stressing the shit out of your motor due to excessive cylinder pressure WHICH can throw a rod etc.

If you ever tune your car on the dyno, you are looking for MBT, the point were you make the most power with timing advance to best use all the mechnical energy out of your current airflow. According to Kevin Jewer
(95gsxracer-) one way that I was told to find MBT on the dyno :

If it picks up good power with each degree (~10 hp), it will take it. If you're only picking up a couple HP per degree take it back out, cylinder pressure is getting up there and you've reached the point of diminishing return.

 

[JayRolla]

Have you logged any airflow numbers lately? Or has your logger been dead for a while. I'm curious as to what you are seeing at that boost pressure compared to my setup. I got out this morning for a couple of third gear pulls and logged 36lbs/min at 30>24psi, on a stock catback . With my cutout open, I usually gain a couple of lbs/min, but I didn't have a chance to make any runs opened up for comparison.

Actually im not sure if MMCD logs airflow, at least I cant find what to log on my logger.

Even if it doesnt knock running that much timing and boost simply isnt safe.
You are probably reaching the point of dimishing returns already and when you cross that point you are actually loosing power from adding more timing AND stressing the shit out of your motor due to excessive cylinder pressure WHICH can throw a rod etc.

If you ever tune your car on the dyno, you are looking for MBT, the point were you make the most power with timing advance to best use all the mechnical energy out of your current airflow. According to Kevin Jewer
(95gsxracer-) one way that I was told to find MBT on the dyno :

I can tell you that 100% I could feel a good increasment in power. Remember I was running 0-1* base timing which was dogging my low rpm power. Now its all back and it feels/sounds so much better.

I hope its ok, but Im going to leave it here for now. Timing has to be at about 25* at top which is not really that bad considering the stock timing map hits 22*. A lot of people say what your saying about adding to much timing but if you look at the guys actually doing it on the dsmlink forums they are running as much as 28* and have done it for a long time.

Remember e85 has a slower burn rate and needs the extra timing. Maybe thats why people on e85 have such good luck on high timing maps.

 

[Black_Bullet]

Actually im not sure if MMCD logs airflow, at least I cant find what to log on my logger.



I can tell you that 100% I could feel a good increasment in power. Remember I was running 0-1* base timing which was dogging my low rpm power. Now its all back and it feels/sounds so much better.

I hope its ok, but Im going to leave it here for now. Timing has to be at about 25* at top which is not really that bad considering the stock timing map hits 22*. A lot of people say what your saying about adding to much timing but if you look at the guys actually doing it on the dsmlink forums they are running as much as 28* and have done it for a long time.

Remember e85 has a slower burn rate and needs the extra timing. Maybe thats why people on e85 have such good luck on high timing maps.

Im not saying your wronge I was just giving my suggestion against it, especially since you dont technically know your timing right now, your guessing. What if it went up to 34degs, I know its not realistic but my original point was you should log it with making that kind of change with the boost your running, its probably not safe practice. I like reading about your car, and I know that your on a tight budget like me. Id hate to see you mess your engine up thats all.

 

[kittay]

Wow, just want to say I am shocked at why everyone thinks they need such large injectors.

I am running 750s on my 16g with E85. I've ran 25psi and it isn't close to maxxing out

It's great if you go to a different setup later, so you don't have to upgrade, just amazes me

 

[JayRolla]

Wow, just want to say I am shocked at why everyone thinks they need such large injectors.

I am running 750s on my 16g with E85. I've ran 25psi and it isn't close to maxxing out

It's great if you go to a different setup later, so you don't have to upgrade, just amazes me

What are you IDC's. Im not sure if its the atltitude or what but no one can really get away with anything under 880's on a 16g here. Im at 69% IDC's on my 1200's right now. My brother is around 75% on his 1000cc's with a 16g. I am still at base FP.

 

[JayRolla]

Im not saying your wronge I was just giving my suggestion against it, especially since you dont technically know your timing right now, your guessing. What if it went up to 34degs, I know its not realistic but my original point was you should log it with making that kind of change with the boost your running, its probably not safe practice. I like reading about your car, and I know that your on a tight budget like me. Id hate to see you mess your engine up thats all.

Thanks man, I am on a budget and would be really mad if I killed it. I did one more wot run through 1st and 2nd and wow, its amazing. It hits so much harder and pulls to redline a lot better. I can find my damn charger since we moved to a new house and ordered a car charger from ebay. So I will just keep off the throttle till I get it.

 

[turbotalon1g]

That boost level is fine, check out the guys running 10s with a spike in the high 30s to 40 and settle to 30.
I have a 3.5" PTE core, cold side always feels cold even on the dyno.

 

[JayRolla]

Yeap my plan is to spike 35 or more to get 28+psi to redline. I was hitting 32psi im guessing and holding 26 to redline. Now I have a boost leak and it will only hold 22-24psi.

 

[Black_Bullet]

Yeap my plan is to spike 35 or more to get 28+psi to redline. I was hitting 32psi im guessing and holding 26 to redline. Now I have a boost leak and it will only hold 22-24psi.

With cams you will not get so much boost to redline.

Have you checked your turbo for shaft play lately.
From running 25psi daily with tb shaft seal leaks and 20k miles on the turbo I have recently started to get very noticeable in and out play on my MHI E316G. Unfortuanantly looks like it will need to be replaced within 8-10k or so at current boost level. I dont plan on running more than 25psi on this turbo and I do need to fix the boost leak I have asap to make the turbo work a little less hard to get a bit more miles out of it, but It will need replaced or rebuild. Im not trying to say nothing in perticular, but making a statement about boost leaks and the amount of boost we run ...

 

[JayRolla]

Yea I hate boost leaks. I will check the turbo, but last time I checked when I did a boost leak test (about 1 month ago) it was perfect. The turbo is about 3 years old too!

 

[JayRolla]

New log after turning base timing back to 4*BTDC. 4th gear run so I could get lots of load on the motor. Timing is a little high but no knock and feels great. Had a little PK at low rpms but got rid of so I will start the log at the end of PK. You can see where I let off the gas when the IDC goes down and timing goes up. This is at an 11.3-11.4 afr at wot and 30psi spike falling to about 24psi by 7krpm.

RPM INJD KNCK TIMA
3400 24% 12 21
3600 19% 0 31
3800 25% 0 28
4000 46% 0 23
4300 54% 0 19
4500 52% 0 22
4750 52% 0 23
4875 54% 0 24
5100 56% 0 24
5300 58% 0 26
5600 60% 0 28
5800 61% 0 28
6000 61% 0 28
6200 62% 0 28
6400 62% 0 27
6600 62% 0 26

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

It would be interesting to do a dyno test to see where you get to the point of diminishing returns on your timing with E85. Just curious if you actually see good HP gains with the timing cranked like that. But, hey if you don't have knock, why not? Right??

 

[JayRolla]

It would be interesting to do a dyno test to see where you get to the point of diminishing returns on your timing with E85. Just curious if you actually see good HP gains with the timing cranked like that. But, hey if you don't have knock, why not? Right??

I cant really control timing since im on just an safc/maft. So base timing is what I can control only. Sucks. Im scared of lifting my headgasket.

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

Do you have an Eprom ECU? Socket that thing and buy an EPROM burner from Moates. Then you have almost endless possibilities when it comes to tuning on the stock platform.

 

[JayRolla]

Do you have an Eprom ECU? Socket that thing and buy an EPROM burner from Moates. Then you have almost endless possibilities when it comes to tuning on the stock platform.

I really have no idea how to start eprom editing. Im thinking of getting ecmlink when it comes out in december as a christmas present.

Will be hitting the dyno in two weeks finally and checking the power difference between 11.1 afr and 11.8 on e85.

 

[MidnightTSI]

I really have no idea how to start eprom editing. Im thinking of getting ecmlink when it comes out in december as a christmas present.

Will be hitting the dyno in two weeks finally and checking the power difference between 11.1 afr and 11.8 on e85.

Very nice. I can't wait to see what kind of numbers you put down. Congrats on getting all the kinks worked out. Where will you be going to dyno? I guess MAC would be quite a hike from the Springs.

 

[JayRolla]

We have a few in the springs but I think I will hit MAC. I can rent the dyno for an hour at $105/hr. I dont like they guys at the shops here in the springs. MAC has been around so I go to them. Carz is pretty good but they wanted to charge me $300 minimum to tune my SAFC when I told them its pretty much done already. The guys there are real good and just wanted to see what they do when tuning my car but thats not worth the money when I know how to tune it myself.

 

[Black_Bullet]

It would be interesting to do a dyno test to see where you get to the point of diminishing returns on your timing with E85. Just curious if you actually see good HP gains with the timing cranked like that. But, hey if you don't have knock, why not? Right??

Why not? because he can still lift the head or throw a rod even with no knock, thats why...

New log after turning base timing back to 4*BTDC. 4th gear run so I could get lots of load on the motor. Timing is a little high but no knock and feels great. Had a little PK at low rpms but got rid of so I will start the log at the end of PK. You can see where I let off the gas when the IDC goes down and timing goes up. This is at an 11.3-11.4 afr at wot and 30psi spike falling to about 24psi by 7krpm.

RPM INJD KNCK TIMA
3400 24% 12 21
3600 19% 0 31
3800 25% 0 28
4000 46% 0 23
4300 54% 0 19
4500 52% 0 22
4750 52% 0 23
4875 54% 0 24
5100 56% 0 24
5300 58% 0 26
5600 60% 0 28
5800 61% 0 28
6000 61% 0 28
6200 62% 0 28
6400 62% 0 27
6600 62% 0 26

Eh, maybe you have bigger balls then me, but Id say too aggressive...
IMO, I think you should at least pull back base timing another deg or two.
Remember with fuels liek C16, E85 etc, we are not tuning for knock, were tuning for cylinder pressures,
thus we are tuning for optimal timing advance.
Ign Timing is just that- "timing". You have to find the sweet spot, and considering you run 2g compression pistons chances are you've likely already passed MBT ( Mean best timing)
going pass that point results in less power and more engine strain.

 

[JayRolla]

I think I may pull it back two degrees also. Its amazing how much timing the guys on the link forums run. Pretty much the same as me. Kevin at Jacks shop here is running 42psi, 1150's, safc/evo maf and seeing 28* at 5* base timing. He has ran it for a long time now and still has not blown anything. Im still using the excuse of how e85 burns slower and needs higher timing levels.