ECU Mods/PnP Programmers/Loggers

[pazsion]

OK, I've searched the forum for 30min looking for Plug and play style ecu programers. For modding the stock ecu.. I'm not willing to invest 1200 in a pecu quite yet, esp if you can re-program the very same things without the newer more expensive aftermarket versions...

I have a 95 n/t talon. And have replaced the old fried modded ecu i had when i bought the car. And i miss being able to go over 9k rpm if i need to. And the fuel cutoff is quite annoying when i'm trying to outrun a 350hp mustange gt with magna flow exhaust =/
its strong up to 4k and fades up to 7.2.. sometimes cutting off at 6.8k shifting into a higher gear or skipping gears no longer gives more speed, but feels lathargic. Like the ecu knows your doing it and just says nope... i'm not doing that.. no way.. even at 7k, mashing the gas in 5th below 80 does nothing.. so first third 5th shifts just dont work right now.

where the old modded cpu was strong up to 4k and even stronger after that.. sometimes spinning wheels through 3rd into fourth. even at speeds of 60-80mph. if i dumped it. I really miss this.. I still have the old ecu, but the voltage regulater is fried in it.. so i would need to have a stand alone v-regulater if i hooked this up again. I haven't found a stand alone unit that can handle 190-250amps the alternator cranks out.. the car was alot stronger when it had that configure ation installed.. but the v-reg would constantly cook itself.

I've also made several mod to the air intake. added an intercooler and breather to where there used to be a pcv valve. resulting in continuos airflow to the intake. And about -5 to
-15 mpg from this. and a good ammount of torque and hp gain. It feels as though the ecu has retarded the timing even more to compensate for those changes as well.

My project is themed more air more mpg.. I'm attempting to use more air then fuel maybe 14:1 since I know that u can have a more powerful explosion if only u had enough air to fuel it. the most i've had was 60mpg. now i'm at 28-40.

I've noticed several plug and play ecu programers for trucks. no laptop required or some fancy knowledge of complex settings..

I was wondering if anyone knew what would work with this car. If there are any simply PNP modifiers. and not just loggers.

I've removed the power steering and am looking for someone to safely discharge the a/c system to also be removed.. There is a load sensor hook up there, anything going to the a/c or powersteering has been disconnected. So i'm guessing the ecu is no longer getting a load reading, and probably just going ok, constant load.. add as much fuel as u can...
on top of adding more fuel becuase of the more and constant airflow its now getting.. WTF

the check engine light is also constant except for one time after filling the radiator.. i'm sure i got a few connections wet... the light turned off. I can get pics if needed.. of wires that are not hooked up.. and possiby hopefully someone can suggest a way to jump them or hook them up to something to get the check engine light to turn off..

this is something i saw on the shelf at advance auto.. and is something along the lines of something i want for this car.. data logger, dyno?, programer. on the fly. but its meant for trucks...
Bully Dog PMT Performance Management Tool

Data logger
Davis Car Chip EX

This is something really close to what i'm loking for minimaly.. plug and play and simple but again meant for trucks. i wish i could get 180 more lbs of torque =P i probably can tho..
Diablo Power Puck, DiabloSport PowerPuck Control Module

Anything under $1200 and doesnt require me to build or purchase another $1200 laptop just to make changes..

 

[99RedGs]

OK, I've searched the forum for 30min looking for Plug and play style ecu programers. For modding the stock ecu.. I'm not willing to invest 1200 in a pecu quite yet, esp if you can re-program the very same things without the newer more expensive aftermarket versions...

I have a 95 n/t talon. And have replaced the old fried modded ecu i had when i bought the car. And i miss being able to go over 9k rpm if i need to. And the fuel cutoff is quite annoying when i'm trying to outrun a 350hp mustange gt with magna flow exhaust =/
its strong up to 4k and fades up to 7.2.. sometimes cutting off at 6.8k shifting into a higher gear or skipping gears no longer gives more speed, but feels lathargic. Like the ecu knows your doing it and just says nope... i'm not doing that.. no way.. even at 7k, mashing the gas in 5th below 80 does nothing.. so first third 5th shifts just dont work right now.

where the old modded cpu was strong up to 4k and even stronger after that.. sometimes spinning wheels through 3rd into fourth. even at speeds of 60-80mph. if i dumped it. I really miss this.. I still have the old ecu, but the voltage regulater is fried in it.. so i would need to have a stand alone v-regulater if i hooked this up again. I haven't found a stand alone unit that can handle 190-250amps the alternator cranks out.. the car was alot stronger when it had that configure ation installed.. but the v-reg would constantly cook itself.

I've also made several mod to the air intake. added an intercooler and breather to where there used to be a pcv valve. resulting in continuos airflow to the intake. And about -5 to
-15 mpg from this. and a good ammount of torque and hp gain. It feels as though the ecu has retarded the timing even more to compensate for those changes as well.

***REALLY LONG POST EDITED OUT***.

Ok, first of all the only modable ECU was the 97. Second are you turbo, because if you aren't then there is no way you are accomplishing some of the stuff in this thread "sometimes spinning wheels through 3rd into fourth. even at speeds of 60-80mph. if i dumped it.". 2gnt's come with ~140 crank hp and currently the highest whp N/A 2gnt is only at 204 whp and I ndoubt even he can accomplish spinning the tires at 60+. I also ask because you said you have an intercooler. If you aren't turbo then there is no need for an intercooler and if anything it probably hurts performance. Third there is no way you have reached 60mpg. I am willing to bet you have reached 35 mpg max if you never went over 3k rpms.



There is no PnP ECu programmer for the 2gnt ECU, but a PnP stand alone is in the alpha testing phases right now. It is going to require a laptop to tune and is not available for purchase yet as far as I know. Expect to pay somewhere around $700+ for this.

To be honest I wasn't sure if this thread was a joke or not, but I answered it anyways. If this is indeed a serious post then you need to do a lot of learning before you start modding or continuing to attempt at modding. You come across as someone who has done some research but may not fully understand what they have read. I say this because you talk about loss of power from retarded timing, afr, removing parasitic loss from P/S and A/C, etc... Just make sure you understand what you are reading correctly before you move on with this.

 

[pazsion]

Ok, first of all the only modable ECU was the 97. Second are you turbo, because if you aren't then there is no way you are accomplishing some of the stuff in this thread "sometimes spinning wheels through 3rd into fourth. even at speeds of 60-80mph. if i dumped it.". 2gnt's come with ~140 crank hp and currently the highest whp N/A 2gnt is only at 204 whp and I ndoubt even he can accomplish spinning the tires at 60+. I also ask because you said you have an intercooler. If you aren't turbo then there is no need for an intercooler and if anything it probably hurts performance. Third there is no way you have reached 60mpg. I am willing to bet you have reached 35 mpg max if you never went over 3k rpms.



There is no PnP ECu programmer for the 2gnt ECU, but a PnP stand alone is in the alpha testing phases right now. It is going to require a laptop to tune and is not available for purchase yet as far as I know. Expect to pay somewhere around $700+ for this.

To be honest I wasn't sure if this thread was a joke or not, but I answered it anyways. If this is indeed a serious post then you need to do a lot of learning before you start modding or continuing to attempt at modding. You come across as someone who has done some research but may not fully understand what they have read. I say this because you talk about loss of power from retarded timing, afr, removing parasitic loss from P/S and A/C, etc... Just make sure you understand what you are reading correctly before you move on with this.

First, thank you! =D well the talons fare better then the 95? 420neons which in some dynos i've seen barely made 100whp.. i think the only thing diffrent is oil routeing and cams, better flowing intake and exhaust...ecu settings? injectoers...alot probably. compression ratio.. I wanna get ahold of the srt-4 cylinder.. and see how much and what improves.. i have yet to se dynos specific to this mod. for this engine. And i did a 1st 3rd 5th and a 2nd 3rd 5th run today to 80.. and coming from second is completely diffrent. As speed seems to help more then rpms here.. i got to 65 in 2nd before 6k.. hey can't i calculate "theroretical" hp from this??

I'm not only reading new ideas, but testing things i have personal experience with for over 3 yrs now, i started with a 93 integra.. but after being away from home for 2 yrs. and Nobody ever listening.. my brother thouroughly screwed that car up as well as several of my friends.. i had 3 keys and gave each of them one when i bought the car...i was 16.. and thought i could trust them.. on top of many thing, my bro put oil in the auto tranny.. well thats a whole other story and it still pisses me off..

the talon..
well, ok if the 90's and up to 96 were not moddable, then how could the dealership make changes to the ecu..? remove fuel cut offs, rev limits and adjust fuel maps..advance and retard timing, adjust the range of that timing..? you can change the settings.. or it is moddable.. Or they actually use a diffrent ecu..from a compatable model??? I'm iffy about piggy-back or in-line mods.. which may be what you mean by modifying...and would use these as a last resort if i can not change the settings through the ecu/PCM itself.

spinning wheels...

I've seen 500+whp do this many times.. it amazes me as well. And without video i have no way of confirming this for others...and care not if they believe me or not, And have yet to be able to repeat it.. the wheels stop between gears and usualy it doesnt keep going into 3rd.. I am not one to street race.. or do anything like this on the streets.. I just wanted to know if it would do it.. And i felt it was a good straight to try it.. now i make sure to fade in and use care with the throttle =) even with an un-tuned reman- ecu...But is something I would like to be able to do again..


intercooler- It is a common belief that intercoolers have no place on n/a vehicles.. i think people think this because it doesn't have the internal air velocity that turbos do to effectively cool the air.. and some are so large that it slows the air down and robs performance in n/a vehicles.. effectivly an oversized plenom.. curiously having 550cf per min of airspace usually helps anyway.. n/a or turbo.. but because of its positioning it only adds drag and doesnt act as a plenum in either n/a or turbo. but boost pushes past that, and the exhaust side helps cancel out the drag created on the intake side.. given free flow exhaust systems..

now what if u used smaller diameter tubing...attached it to where the pcv-valve went. put a breather on the intake side of the cam cover.. ran the exit side of the cams pvc through a filter then through an oil or transmission cooler..-smaller diameter- maintaints the higher velocity airflow. the filter is to keep it clean and add restriction to keep the idle where it needs to be, untill i can get a TB of sorts.. And then from the intercooler to the intake-man.

what are the results so far? well before the manifold temps would get above 160*f after the engine warmed up...even with cold air intake. the heat seems to transfer from the block. And the egr adds heat as well.. before i blocked it intake temps in the manifold were 200+ f. now the temps run from 70-100. and stayed at 100 while the car was running even in 110 heat index during our last summer stopped and idleing. On cold nights the power is so great i've felt my eyeballs stick to the back of their sockets.. and the tunnel effect of a good ammount of g's was finally felt and seen. But so far this is variable and depends on many conditions. And I think my cat is clogged....and will be buying a larger filter to put inplace of the inline fuel filter that is on the inlet side of the intercooler.

My goal was just to lower the intake temps. And hopefully increase MPG because of this. But as stated previously i've lost the 60mpg even if i redlined a few times..I got a lil over 160 miles from 2 ga of gas. And i assume it used 3.. even then thats more then 60mpg... before this install, now i get 80 to 100. I ran till it stalls and wont start then add 3 gallons.. the last gallon is usually un usuable and the car sputters and stalls trying to use it.. And i'm wondering how I lost the mpg and due to what...To help solve this and maybe get more mpg I need to know what the ecu is trying to do with the extra,colder, constant air flow. And try diffrent seting for mpg and power gains.. on top of that I did install the 400watt lighting at about the same time.. so both of these are a contributing factor to now having 32-40mpg. even stop and go.. sometimes during aggressive driveing i get 22mpg.. acceptable for now.

At highway speeds temps have gone below 50*f and since winter has come performance has also increased.. torque is felt from 1k to the 7.2 cutoff hot or cold, of the re-man ecu.. and no longer hesitates between 3k-5k. just the breather alone decreased this as well. but with intercooler there is no loss in power that i can feel. throughout the rpms from 1k-7.2...

I very much wish to dyno my current setup and tune it as well.. there is definate increase in hp and torque. I really need the numbers to verify this. So a logger with virtual dyno is on my wish list.. but would really like something i can tune with on my own.. it's probably gonna take some time to learn how to change what when, and how to get the computer to do that when it needs too... and get the best setting i think works...save them.. then dyno and tune. and compare notes =)


Also indexing the quad platium plugs, has given some slight gains in power and mpg. by grounding the exhaust, at no point does the exhaust system make an electrical ground, due to the mounts being rubber...So i have a wire bolted to the chassis from the headers, which is rated past 140k volts..and 200*c I could also try actualy indexing them. but thats futile as the plume expands in 4 directions and down anyway.. I have yet to see by voltimeter if any current is actually passing through the wires.. The first set i tried tho certainly fried.. and the headers were not hot.. So that suggests a good amount of current passes through it.. or running it from the headers to the neg. chassis ground for the battery was a bad idea...

 

[bastarddsm]

Can I have your dealers number? Really, I think everything you have mentioned except for indexing your plugs is complete nonsense. I suggest that you stop doing crack...it will kill you someday.

 

[z24frank]

My head hurts now!

 

[pazsion]

this thread will probably get alot of this stuff since it's not proven mods that everyone does... +P

 

[knochgoon24]

Could you pop the hood and take some pictures? What you describe is really hard to understand without some pictures.

 

[99RedGs]

My head hurts now!

I'm glad I'm not the only one.

I have to re-read everything posted above before I can make additional comments on it.. I'm still not sure if this is a joke or not to be honest but I'm reserving judgement.

You come across as someone who has an idea what they are talking about, but to me the execution just seems off. Is there anyone else who wants to tackle this one?

 

[LandoAWD]

I see lots of random words and claims and no proof of concept...

 

[z24frank]

Im not trying to be a smart azz either but I didnt want to read it again.I didnt know either if it was supposed to be serious or not?

 

[pazsion]

yea, i'll get some pics.. The way i put it down i dont think anyone could peice it together logically..

A friend gave me a battery cable, for the indexing.. it seems to be a bit better.. a lil stronger.. we'll see how it holds out tho.. I need a few more pieces so it makes a better connection tho..

 

[pazsion]

Thats the thing this is a concept. Prototype, etc. It hasn't been proven to do anything..
Just trying to get as close to 200hp and 60mpg as i can. I've read that the cams, and coil on n/t's can do this by themselves..taller? more duration, then turbo?? If after all these mods i do, I'm not near or at 200hp, then when i get cams, I should easily make that or more.. but i still need to do tuning.. I made a 40-60mph in 2nd gear video. Just to get a time refrence and to hear it in my headphones etc.. I think it sucked, i had a buncha stuff in the car.. probably 120 additional lbs plus me.. but i'll get it uploaded soon to share...

Running it wide open no filter to intercooler was steady 2k rpm and ate fuel.. this was meant to help save fuel, by keeping the intake cooler, denser.. I was also hopeing to add a spin to the intake manifold by going through the pvc pipeing on the manifold.. the egr tube is next to get a filter.. I just have to clean out the new tube i got. cut it and fit a filter..

:ics:: =)

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Oil cooler with the fuels filter in> flow. mounted in front of drivers side wheel.

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notice no pvc valve. I don't like burning oil, and sludge in my intake..

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6x5 into 4" adapter. open tip. stock air pipe. maybe 3 1/2 " full steel mesh

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The orange breather from the intake to the cam cover. and heat shielded line from the oil cooler.

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top down.

 

[pazsion]

YouTube - 40-60 3.5 to 7.2rpm 4.5sec?


at 40 mph at about 3.5k rpm on to 7.2 cut off, into 3rd.. maybe i'll get a 0-80 mph next..

 

[TalonESIT]

spinning wheels...

I've seen 500+whp do this many times.. it amazes me as well. And without video i have no way of confirming this for others...and care not if they believe me or not, And have yet to be able to repeat it.. the wheels stop between gears and usualy it doesnt keep going into 3rd.. I am not one to street race.. or do anything like this on the streets.. I just wanted to know if it would do it.. And i felt it was a good straight to try it.. now i make sure to fade in and use care with the throttle =) even with an un-tuned reman- ecu...But is something I would like to be able to do again..

What the hell? You said 500+WHP car has done this many times... but you're comparing this to your car which barely pushes 100WHP?? We know how wheel spinouts btwn gears works, it looks like you were asking how you could do it, so why are you comparing it to a 500whp car? OF COURSE THEY CAN DO IT!

I've read through your posts a few times and it just seems a bit ridiculous... not knocking on your innovative thinking, but your irrational conclusions that are based entirely off of theories!
You've read cams and coils could provide you the right route to give you 200hp?! Where did you read this? Just because you read it doesn't make it true. Like we said, talk to Mark (bulletdsm) he'll explain to you that busting out 200hp is not a simple plug and play affair. He did A LOT more than just buy coils and cams.

I am REALLY curious about where you are doing your research because it is not so much your knowledge that is making you looks stupid, it's your lack of sources.

Show me a healthy 350hp mustang lose to an almost stock dsm NT and I will happily tip my hat to you... But PLEASE DO US AND YOURSELF A FAVOR AND DO MORE RESEARCH BEFORE RANTING ABOUT ALL THIS THEORIES.


And you're not really making it clear, What are those videos for? Time referrence for what?! Are you trying to show us your fuel cut-off?

I don't want to take a turn to negative sides just a more clear explanation on what your talking about, NOT PROOF just SOURCES. At least to spark our interests instead of just preparing to bash...

 

[tkelly27]

Your videos have shown that it takes your car about the same amount of time to get from 40-60 as a stock turbo DSM will go from 0-60, give or take a second or so.

You can calculate gear ratio from engine RPM vs. vehicle speed, but HP is based on the amount of time to get to that speed, and will also require that you know the weight of the vehicle and the amount of air resistance you're pushing against. So, no, you can't know your hp based on your speed in a given RPM.

I would recheck how you measure your gas mileage. Otherwise, enter your car into the fuel mileage X prize. 22 is normal, 30 is not out of the question, anything too far above that and you're measuring it wrong, or you've really got something with your breathers going on all up in that engine bay.

The reason an intercooler does not work on a N/A engine is because there is no significant amount of heat put into the intake charge like on a turbo engine. The turbocharger compresses the air and adds heat, that does not happen in a N/A engine. It does not matter how many hoses you hook to it of any size or where they go. What you have is a cold air intake, which has been shown to add power for both turbo and N/A. This is an intercooler
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/att...2-best-intercooler-fmic_fascia_off_1_420a.jpg
the big aluminum thing on the front of the car. If you put one on your car and you don't have a turbocharger you will go SLOWER, no if and or buts.

I could imagine getting the tires to chirp at somewhere near 60mph if you have total crap tires and you absolutely dumped the clutch. Especially in the rain! I had an '89 plymouth horizon with 300k miles that I could make smoke the tires all the way up to 45mph with enough persuasion. That was on dry pavement with just enough tread to keep the tires from technically being "slicks". Due to the weight transfer of FWD vehicles, getting the tires to break loose is not a big deal. My ex's 3 cylinder geo could keep the tires spinning all the way through 1st gear. I could also imagine you doing a burnout and having the speedo read out 60mph. Which means you're going fairly slow, but the tires are spinning very fast.

#1, the '90-94 computers are completely different from your car. #2 the only factory DSM 420a ECUs that can be modified are the '97s like was explained to you. Dealerships didn't do changes to the spark or fuel tuning. Aftermarket companies and home tuners physically removed the stock binaries of the 4G63 computers and replaced them with custom code. Which doesn't even matter because you've got a 420a! The only real solution for those is a SAFC or a MS.

Did you miss the part where 99redGS told you that the highest HP 420a DSM has about 200whp? Again, no, the stock cams aren't going to get you there, and aftermarket cams aren't going to get you there "and some more". A turbo can, but if I were you I'd start with the fundamentals before trying all the things that other people don't do.

 

[absolute_DSM]

I feel smart after this thread.

 

[bullettdsm]

A big conrats to tkelly27 for being able to understand what is being said (at least I think he does). Because, honestly, I can't understand the OP's positions and/or questions.

To the OP, maybe you can focus on a single concept/aspect of what you want to know/share. That can help us understand/help you. Because, from what I can pull out of your posts, you are making claims that are basically unheard of for the 420a. I'm thinking you are crossing information over from say 4g63's or Honda's. The 420a is definitely a different animal.

I will say this much about mpg's. I did at one point get 40mpg with around 169whp(? hard to remember actual number) on one of my set-up/tunes that I used as a daily driver. That was over 500 miles with about 70 of those miles being city driving. I can't imagine 60mpg at 200whp

MB

 

[pazsion]

cool,

alright, I want 60 mpg over 200hp.. but in the end. both.. probably impossible. But at some point hydrogen will be an ingredient. that alone could get some mpg.. some say 300 miles on less then a gal of water..


yea, i was thinking a stock turbo talon would get 4.5-5.2

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[pazsion]

The above post is a modded dual sync tranny gsx.. and it does the same 40-60 in 2. vs my possible 4 seconds. Turbos rule, power. no question. But do you remember those ram air n/a dragsters... beating those turbos..? I haven't seen any recently in drags i've seen, but it's very interesting..

I'll probably send bulletdsm a p/m or something about some of the mods he's done. Yea i'm sure he put alot of work into his engine.. I haven't. But i will. This is a never ending thing. Even when you think you have a "fully-built" motor.

I hate it when people say that.. no engine is fully built.. U can bust out a few rods etc from too much boost, or too much fuel etc.. but you can make changes on your next build. Better parts maybe.. And you could end up running more then you thought you could. And you still have room to grow.

I'm aware of what an intercooler is.. And Why turbos need them to be efficent. but turbos cool the air, during the compression. Intercoolers help cool the air even more. Oil/water is used to cool the turbos high-speed barings and the very hot exhaust side. Sometimes external misters are installed on the casing of the turbo, and it's manifold.. to further cool them.. And yes, the oil cooler i have installed on my intake is a intercooler.. which is proven to decrease the intake temps. As i have measured them myself. And the results have been consistent up to 105*f external air temp. and still my intake charge at the manifold was less then 100*f ... before the install. And egr block.

it was 160+ up to 260 once. that's not good.. And the car had terrible hesitation. Any engine would. The oxygen content sux at those temps..nothing new there..

But 40mpg? consistently.. meassured by the trip meter in my dash and the 2.4 gallons in my tank =P i'd get atleast 120 miles before the needle settled where it was.. usually at or below e. the light doesn't come on till it's maybe less then1/4" below e. no not very accurate.. I don't have a digital read out, of gallons in tank. And mpg. Be nice tho..

I'm asking about what i could change to increase this. On my quest to 60mpg. Hydrogen is good, but I think it's possible with 93. Just the car companies are buddies with big oil. And big oil doesn't want them selling anything over 30mpg. <yes thats a theory....or is it?> 60 years man.. and even 4cyl. make the same mpg as v-8's?? give or take 5mpg.... So i'm thinking a/f, spark, Is msg better then the stock coil..I've heard the stock n/a coil is beast.... And emissions like the cat<which i think needs to be replaced anyway>. And various computer controlled things. weight, and decreasing drag. The 95 i think has a drag co-efficent of .29 Would be a good start.. Oil pressure, adjusts the lift of the cams. via the lifters. How can these be modified.. Is there something I've missed in the forums?? Where the old honda's had screws or bolts to adjust this.. Are we stuck with one setting? or Are people swaping things...etc..

I want mpg more then right now..my goal is 60mpg on pump fuel. But if i floor it i want to feel it. And the car to haul butt.. not putter around, and eventually decide it's time to move.. After the intercooler alone slightly changed that.. at the expense of mpg.. But yet it's easier to stay below 2k now, even up a hill. more torque and hp? tho probably not much. maybe 20-30hp-lbs? from all mods..But without some sorta dyno. I'll never know. A few tranny mods could help there too. is 3.55 final gear stock?? The ecu is stock. taking out the cut-off and limiter would be really nice..

I have not invested in ex. manifold yet. I probably should. oem is pathetic. But i have my own ideas for this. So it may be a while.

So in the meantime, I'll get as much as i can to increase the air and voltage to the firing chamber., I know from past experience it can come from the ecu, So the ecu needs to be looked at as well. For mpg and HP .. I just dont want to spend $1400 on it. at this point. When i know that inside this little metal box, is 20 more hp. or 30 more mpg..minimum. But over-all it's much more pleasant to drive. But i'm reminded constantly on what and why i want to change things. And that i have a ways to go. And ways to get there. Some require alot of cash.. some dont. And are very simple.

If i had $1400 I'd start building the 2.4 motor....and do the same with that engine.

 

[Locke]

An intercooler cannot reduce temperatures to below ambient.

Turbo's heat the air during compression.

To measure MPG, you'd want to start at a certain point, and be able to measure how much fuel was consumed over a measured number of miles. To figure how much fuel was used, fill up the tank completely, then do your testing. The more fuel you use during testing, the greater the accuracy will be. Then fill the tank back up completely - the number of gallons you added to the tank will be how many you used.



If you want to be more fuel efficient:

1. Being thoroughly up to date on your maintenance is essential.

2. Removing unneeded weight from the vehicle. This alone will have a tremendous effect on MPG.

3. Change your driving habits. Keep the rpm's low and steady when cruising, and between the torque and hp peaks and being WOT while accelerating. Lugging the engine is wasting fuel - you have 5 gears to choose from, use the right one for the job.

4. An installed and functional EGR system can help improve economy while cruising as well. Wrap the EGR pipe if your worried about it heating your intake.

5. Reduce parasitic losses. Installing a UDP, and removing PS and AC will take a load off the motor.

6. Reduce pumping losses. A free-flowing muffler and cat will get exhaust out easier. A CAI/SRI with a large low-restriction filter will let the air in easier. In an effort to save fuel, you will be generally keeping the revs low, so good exhaust scavenging will be in your benefit here. Either stock sized, or possibly slightly larger will be best. I'd probably stick with stock cams, and if you seldom find yourself passing or accelerating rapidly, possibly increasing LSA with a set of adjustable cam gears to move the power-band down.

7. A programmable engine computer (such as MS) with the aide of a WBO2 will allow you to run the engine very lean during cruising. This will skyrocket your NOx emissions though, so if you have emissions testing, beware. An SAFC may be used, but you'll find yourself fighting the ECU, as it adjusts FT's.

8. Increasing CR will increase power throughout the rev range, without the need for added fuel. You will find yourself giving less throttle to do what you want.

9. The 3.55 tranny may or may not help with your fuel economy. If you put mostly highway miles on your car, then it will definitely help. If you spend a lot of time around stop-lights and stop-signs, you may find yourself lugging the motor unnecessarily. See #3. A 3.94 transmission with 0.72:1 5th could be beneficial.

10. The vehicle does have very good aero already, as you mentioned. There isn't much you can do to improve. Replacing the foglights and it's bezel with blanks will help, as would covering the side vents. Removing the spoiler may help. (I'm unsure of the function of the 3pc spoiler.)

I'm sure there are other things, but these seem to be the obvious things you can do.

 

[TalonESIT]

cool,

alright, I want 60 mpg over 200hp.. but in the end. both.. probably impossible. But at some point hydrogen will be an ingredient. that alone could get some mpg.. some say 300 miles on less then a gal of water..

False Again my friend...I currently built and am running a full electrolysis system on my 93 lexus, AKA hydrogen and water to give better gas mileage... I have it connected and has been running for the past 3 months with at the most 5 extra miles TO THE TANK. It varies is every car, but honestly, HOH will not give better gas mileage alone.

 

[99RedGs]

Thankfully this thread is on tuners because if it was posted anywhere else he would be flamed up and down and this thread would have gone viral...

 

[Car_guy_09]

Wow...


Locke, TalonESIT, 99RedGs, : Very well said

You have a lot to learn bud, You will NEVER get 60mpg. And it will be near impossible to get 200hp N/A. If you want 200hp start looking at turbo kits. There is no way to change settings in the factory ECU's. The only way you can tune your car is A, SAFC B, Mega Squirt C, Other Stand Alone ECU.

I suggest you do some research and read til your eyes bleed.

 

[pazsion]

False Again my friend...I currently built and am running a full electrolysis system on my 93 lexus, AKA hydrogen and water to give better gas mileage... I have it connected and has been running for the past 3 months with at the most 5 extra miles TO THE TANK. It varies is every car, but honestly, HOH will not give better gas mileage alone.

reading till my eyes bleed, a bit extream, but i do spend alot of time reading around.
Many n/a engines make plenty of hp/tq i'm curious as to why this one is so damn stubborn. The size of the exhaust side is a good start.. and the rubber timing belt...
i've seen some 2.4's with chains.. i' m seriously considering doing a head swap with those, if i find them again. do it when i need to replace the belt..eheh.. stupid daily driver..

h20 is great. I'm glad your using it. I was referring to a system that can sustain the vehical by it self. will probably need like 4L/min with the talon? similar 2.0 motors?
But i would also need enough to sustain past 8k My bro is thinking pressurized systems.. I keep reminding him he needs to think smaller. And only produce enough needed to be used.. that way there is no stored fuel..less stress on components. no big boom possible around alternate ignition sources.. what ever they may be..And yes, if u produced more, and more pure.. hydrogen and oxygen.. you would see more mpg.. out of your fuel. It would be nice if it would run alone if it needed to wouldn't it?


z, yea it's pretty silly to argue wiether the temps inside the intake right by the turbine is cold or hot. just beause of the friction of the air. 1lb per foot? x rpm? =force? 30lbs of boost? could potentially be 300lbs of friction between the walls and the turbine??

When theres more air that's cold comeing in, it rotates. from the flow cads i've seen. in most turbo designs

distance speed and time for est hp?

speed x rpm x time.. so 60 x 7.2 divded by 4? z 108? eheheh 60x4/8 is 1680 take off the zero? hehe

___________________________________________________________________________

4. An installed and functional EGR system can help improve economy while cruising as well. Wrap the EGR pipe if your worried about it heating your intake.

It will be wrapped..does it absolutley need exhaust to be cooler...basically chokeing the motor, to reduce nox.. or can i just have this run with a filter..possible valve/TB...I've noticed it doesn't run through the IAC

5. Reduce parasitic losses. Installing a UPD, and removing PS and AC will take a load off the motor.

I assume UPD...is underdrive pulley? Are they configured so the rpms are more or less..at the alternater.. I need to that for various things. And is probably my biggest parasitic loss right now, over the cat and transmission

6. Reduce pumping losses. A free-flowing muffler and cat will get exhaust out easier. A CAI/SRI with a large low-restriction filter will let the air in easier. In an effort to save fuel, you will be generally keeping the revs low, so good exhaust scavenging will be in your benefit here. Either stock sized, or possibly slightly larger will be best. I'd probably stick with stock cams, and if you seldom find yourself passing or accelerating rapidly, possibly increasing LSA with a set of adjustable cam gears to move the power-band down.


LSA? whats that? WTF =D limited slip axle? z pls lemme kno
Yes the exhaust i have planned, if designed and built right. should allow a expansion area right off the head, into 4 into 1. With a ground kit in back, that would have a pretty good sized area for the scavenging effect of passing wind. I wanna incorporate some means of ram air induction.. that runs inline with exhaust.. I think there is little room and significant drag if i mount them on the front.. possibly fog lights area.. routing of that pipeing and keeping increased velocity with speed.. would be the point of that.. and possibly difficult. whats SRI?

Right now I have the fog caps assembly removed, as well as the front mud flaps to allow air to pass thru and under the car.. Much more stable at speed and coasts at 80 just fine =) on flats and hills..
And helps keep the engine and brakes cooler.. as well as more air for the car to breath as the intake is inside that area, but still mostly driver side engine bay. =D I have to let off the gas if a good gust of wind comes from the front or sides =)

Which reminds me. The design of these 3 door hatch back's needs a spoiler or something to stabalize the airflow over the car.. 100mph + u start to get a bit scuirlly. Without any. Good example is that rx-7 going for the land speed, and got a good cosss-wind right as he got to 200mph.. Picked it up from the back end.. The car had no spoiler.. I'm thinking it might not have happend if they had a spoiler even a simple one with some downforce.

I'm thinking the one of the 96 with the centerpost and thin design would fit my needs pretty good.
I don't plan on doing more then 130 any time soon. As 160+ tire speed rating is usually out of my budget..



7. A programmable engine computer (such as MS) with the aide of a WBO2 will allow you to run the engine very lean during cruising. This will skyrocket your NOx emissions though, so if you have emissions testing, beware. An SAFC may be used, but you'll find yourself fighting the ECU, as it adjusts FT's.

eh, lean is more fuel...right.. not where i'm trying to go here.. unless I florr it of course..
I think the ecu finding trims adds to the bog and hesitation as welll.. wasting fuel yet again. A secondary air fuel controller...where would i get one? This is separate from an ecu right? I do have the MS ecu in mind. But i'm a ways off from gettin ahold of $800...

8. Increasing CR will increase power throughout the rev range, without the need for added fuel. You will find yourself giving less throttle to do what you want.

CR? Compression ratio...right.. And yes so far i am using less pedal..Am i wrong here but can't timing increase compression as well? Advance.. right?...Can this be changed by re-positioning the cam sensor? or will the ecu adjust to compensate? Small changes I guess..I always see peoples timing gears set at 0 for these cars. And the cam sensor is only on the exhaust side? And I'd want that to be open longer anyway.. I'm thinking moving the cam sensor would only delay or advance the fuel injection.. ??? am i wrong?


Lifters and rockers: I asked about how these can be improved.. I swapped the rockers from the 4g63 in there.. when i did a head rebuild. They seemed a bit shorter, but ride in the same area. And have good tolerances. They have a hole over the lifters.. I'm wondering if this would decrease the lift over the oem rockers. Because the oil passes thru it more.. I really thinking these lifters are what holding it back.. from 200hp+ You want them thrown open as wide as u can, but not hitting the piston or remaining open longer then they are sopposed to.. but stronger springs would help this.

I read that agressive cams/stronger springs could make the water pump houseing fail.. too much stress? Probably on the list of things to machine and improve...

 

[Slippi84]

I guess a mod didn't share my sense of humor and deleted my post Dude I admire your desire to break the mold but your trying to squeeze a dollar out of 15cents.