More Boost or More Timing Advance?

[JayRolla]

It is relatively easy to add boost or timing. The problem is: You can not do much, cause you'll need C-16, or Meth. What is relatively safe timing, if I want to run 25PSI on pump, with a mid frame turbo like 35R ???

Or get your self some e85. I dont even log knock anymore when I'm tuning. Just make sure timing doesnt go over 22* and then add boost. If I run a lean tune then I will start to look at knock but even at 12.1 afr, 30psi and 22* I still had zero knock.

 

[dnhieu]

Or get your self some e85. I dont even log knock anymore when I'm tuning. Just make sure timing doesnt go over 22* and then add boost. If I run a lean tune then I will start to look at knock but even at 12.1 afr, 30psi and 22* I still had zero knock.

that MUST be making some serious power!

 

[daren_p]

this might be a dumb question but how would you set up a 2g timing map in dsmlink?

please flame away...

If your a member of the DSMLink forums, check out the wiki. They have a write up posted on how to adjust your 1g sliders to match a 2g factory curve.

Edit: Actually, maybe everyone can view this, here is a link?:

2gtimingin1gecu [ECMTuning - wiki]

 

[dnhieu]

that setup is not a steady curve...

 

[Black_Bullet]

It is relatively easy to add boost or timing. The problem is: You can not do much, cause you'll need C-16, or Meth. What is relatively safe timing, if I want to run 25PSI on pump, with a mid frame turbo like 35R ???

All cars are different, and with different mods, etc its impossible for anyone to blindly tell you what kind of timing your motor should see.

You just need to set the timing low enough with a conservative AFR to get the boost dialed in were you want it to be, and then once thats all set, start slowly adding timing in 2 deg incriments or something like that until you reach the max timing you can get away with throughout your powerband with whatever amount of knock your comfortable dealing with in your tune. Basically a solid afr ( 11.1-11.5 on pump Id think) and as much timing as you can get away with on your desired boost level, and thats all there is to it...

The better your cooling, octane, fmic, engine VE, etc. could affect how much timing you can get away with. Plus your compression will also change the burn rate and that will affect the needed timing advance as well...

I used to ask questions like this and this is the kind of information I was shown, ( especially from studying some of Kevin- 95GSXracer's posts) and getting a better understanding of what the timing advance does in relation to the power stroke etc will help dial in the tune.

 

[turboglenn]

It amazes me how little timing you guys are getting from units that are still based around the factory ECU. I have 20+ degrees of timing from as early as 4k RPM , only ramping up a couple degrees by 7500RPM (my redline)

I have 22* @ 30psi and 5k RPM, i get about 1-2 degrees of knock on a very hot and humid day. On nights like these last few (low 60's ambient temp) I get no knock, and yesterday when an EVo tried to "show me his stuff" i wiggled right past him in third gear spinning tires and let off after the frontend went from sde to side 2-3 times (LSD was locked and i was in the throttle maybe 5 seconds tops ), he let off after seeing the type of powerband the car had I give this credit to stand alone engine management.

Can you DSmlink guys force this kind of curve on your system? The few i've messed with didn't seem to really be be able to gain much timing over the stock curve on pump gas ( i blame this on the mitsu knock sensing system) For years even on 91 pump piss i was running at least 16-18* timing under all boost areas...the 16-18 was at peak boost of 18-19psi back then.

IMO, more PSI tends to gain more HP than a few more * of timing, and AFR does less than both. I run nice safe AFR's (11:1 on pump - 11.5 - 12:1 on E85), then i run as much timing as i think the combo would like (years of tuning kinda give me a good reference in my head) + using olds-chool tell-tale signs of detonation to tune by and not going too lean have always yielded me some of the fastest and longest running street cars in the area. Not once have i had a customer either say "i got smoked, i can't believe it" (as long as it was a car in their league) nor have i had anyone say "well, the car blew the motor today"... I have grenaded a few trannies on WRX's after laying down a good tune and letting the owner go beat the car on the streets

I atribute most of my best tunes to a balance of finding the most boost and the most reasonable AFR i can run with "X" amount of timing for daily reliability or all out drag/auto-x racing ( it depends on the engine build/CR/cams...etc.. as to what curve i use) and my maps area fairly "timing heavy" in some areas, but about 3 - 7 more degrees more conservative in others, i guess i just feel for what the motor is doing and pick a happy spot instead of trying to max everything out to the edge of popping head gaskets and blowing ring lands .

Anyway, My point is, get a safe amount of timing under WOT, 16-17-18* at 6 - 6500 RPM is good for a motor under 9:1 with a set of stock cams on pump at 20psi as a you can make at that RPM happens to be. And Idon't get too agressive up top on a street tune. I'll keep a nice flat curve but that extra timing early on really makes a car pull for a nice wide RPM range ... Then flatten it out to hold a good boost level and keep the AFR's in check!

Good luck, report back..especially if you can feel any notable diffrences or an overall improvement in performance ( gain or loss for that matter)

 

[Black_Bullet]

^^ Keep in mind you have better fuel than some of us who dont get to play with e85.
Id be running a shit load more timing and 12.1 afr's if I had that fuel available to me.
The tuning methods ive been using seem to work fine for extracting a good amount of boost on pump gas...

 

[turboglenn]

^^ that's why i sugessted 16-18* on pump, i have the corn juice now and i love it...might have forgotten to mention that. I'm pretty tired... I was running a near identicale curve just about 5* lower than the E85 timing map, and it was still much better on pump at 18psi with 16* timing at 4k RPM. I paid no attention to a knock sensor, and always got fast reliable tunes this way, that's all I was really getting at.

 

[Black_Bullet]

^^ I was running a near identicale curve just about 5* lower than the E85 timing map, .

Thats interesting.

 

[soldave]

Have been reading this thread with much interest (Black Bullet - we meet again!). Since I put the Comp Cams in my car back in Feb I have been getting a little more knock in my engine. Did a little research and a few people said the same (and also with the FP cams which I believe are very similar to the Comp Cams). Am currently tuning my car and I'm up to 1.42bar/21psi and have already had to take a bit of timing out to run that without knock retarding timing. Would like to try and up the boost to something like 1.7bar/25psi but I reckon I'd have to take out too much timing (going below 15*) for me to be actually gaining anything from it.

 

[dnhieu]

Have been reading this thread with much interest (Black Bullet - we meet again!). Since I put the Comp Cams in my car back in Feb I have been getting a little more knock in my engine. Did a little research and a few people said the same (and also with the FP cams which I believe are very similar to the Comp Cams). Am currently tuning my car and I'm up to 1.42bar/21psi and have already had to take a bit of timing out to run that without knock retarding timing. Would like to try and up the boost to something like 1.7bar/25psi but I reckon I'd have to take out too much timing (going below 15*) for me to be actually gaining anything from it.

i was tuning tonight at the same boost levels but i have bc 280 cams. i had to pull 1 degree from the stock timing at 5k then another degree at 6k to finally get 0 knock. my afrs are around 10.8 when i hit full boost. im going to try bumping the boost up to around 24lbs tomorrow...

i really need to just get my meth injection hooked back up so i can just clear all the knock and add a ton of timing!

edit: my timing is right where yours is at around 16 degrees at redline...

 

[soldave]

I'm running a 50/50 meth mix with all this already. Don't you find your afr is a little too rich at 10.8? I'd have thought having it a little bit leaner (just into the 11s) would be better.

 

[dnhieu]

i have always ran 10.8's with both of the motors in my car. it blows black smoke under heavy boost but i know its safe. i have never felt much of a difference on my but dyno from 11.3-10.8. maybe thats just me but my car has always ran strong in that area. im wondering if the dyno tuner will lean that out and make more power when i get a chance to get it dyno tuned...

edit: when i start throwing meth at it again ill probably end up with around 23-24 degrees of timing again...

 

[Black_Bullet]

Have been reading this thread with much interest (Black Bullet - we meet again!). Since I put the Comp Cams in my car back in Feb I have been getting a little more knock in my engine. Did a little research and a few people said the same (and also with the FP cams which I believe are very similar to the Comp Cams). Am currently tuning my car and I'm up to 1.42bar/21psi and have already had to take a bit of timing out to run that without knock retarding timing. Would like to try and up the boost to something like 1.7bar/25psi but I reckon I'd have to take out too much timing (going below 15*) for me to be actually gaining anything from it.

When I first installed cams my car knocked a little more than pre cams even at the same boost, afr, timing map.
Im guessing from the increase in cylinder pressure, but it wasnt that I couldnt get away with the same peak amount of timing, I just had to change the shape of the curve. But I recently have been skeptical about these brian crower cams since Im hearing more and more about how they arent degreed right when you drop them straight in and that they need cam gears...

Anyways, I had to start pulling timing out of the mid range ( no lose of timing after 6k though )
and I started cranking the boost. To me 25psi feels the strongest on a 16g, and about the highest I reasonably can go on pump gas with a shitty intercooler....I still manage to keep the timing moderate though. With an even bigger turbo the gains shuold be even better.

Boost will make the most power, imo if you have to sacrifice 3 degs of timing for 3 lbs of boost
(as long as your still within the turbos efficiency, or "sweetspot") then do it.
Especially with how much bigger your turbo is then mines, your gains with boost will be larger.

Even all the high horse power pump gas cars I see with really high boost and lowish timing.
There was a old dsmtalk thread about a guy making 500awhp on pump and it was a big achievement at the time the thread took place, and I recall that guy wasnt running shit for timing.

Just try it and see if it works for you, if not just put the tune back to how it is now.
With meth injection though I dont see why you would have any issues adding boost and leaving the timing the same, maybe you need to step up your meth system, your tune seems like a regular pump gas without meth tune imo?

 

[soldave]

Nah, we have tuned for meth. The meth took away some huge knock I was getting with the small 16G at about 1.3-1.4bar of boost. It is possible that my Comp Cams need cam gears although I've just changed the timing belt and would really rather not have to replace cam gears now for some that need degreeing properly. Might be the key to my knock and problems though. And there's also the fact that we don't have an AWD dyno here in Okinawa which means degreeing it all would be a bit of a pain (although maybe someone can tell me more about that as I don't really have any knowledge about it).

I'm also gonna try switching to BR8ES plugs this weekend and see if that has any effect. Basically trying to isolate what is causing the knock and causing me to not be making as much power as I probably should be.

 

[gsxrtalon]

Yes everyones cars are different. On my 35r I run 15-16 degrees through 5-6k and yes I am running on 93octane pump with my wot afr of 11.0:1

 

[dnhieu]

Yes everyones cars are different. On my 35r I run 15-16 degrees through 5-6k and yes I am running on 93octane pump with my wot afr of 11.0:1

this is where im finding good safe power without meth.

 

[gsxrtalon]

If that is where you are finding a safe comfortable tune on your setup then go with that and do some minor tweaks and adjustments to see what you can manipulate. I know a lot of guys on dsmlink forums that help me tune actually say to tune right until you get a couple signs of knock( 0.1 - 0.8) and that is where your car will make its most power.

You will have to find your setups "power point" to where the car actually stops producing power and the right maps to run until you can switch over to E85 or alky/meth.

 

[jrohner]

But I recently have been skeptical about these brian crower cams since Im hearing more and more about how they arent degreed right when you drop them straight in and that they need cam gears...

I have the BC 272 cams in my car & I love them. It doesn't seem to have lost low end, spool is the same as before, and I have more power with less boost (my E3 16G can't keep up any more -- only 22-23psi on top end). I put down 371 awhp & torque on a dyno dynamics. Last time I was only in fwd mode and put down 340 fwhp & 380 torque. Changes were the intercooler, cams, ported exhaust manifold, and leaner afr.

I run around 20' of timing at 3 grand, and about 25 at like 5 grand on e85. The torque is amazing when the turbo first hits. I would hate to ever have to run 91 octane again. My afr's were mid to upper 8's (12.5 to 13:1 gas afr) on low end and about 8:1 (12:1 gas afr) on top end. My car always goes richer with more rpms for some reason, even though I have the afr table set leaner on top.

 

[Black_Bullet]

I have the BC 272 cams in my car & I love them. It doesn't seem to have lost low end, spool is the same as before, and I have more power with less boost (my E3 16G can't keep up any more -- only 22-23psi on top end). I put down 371 awhp & torque on a dyno dynamics. Last time I was only in fwd mode and put down 340 fwhp & 380 torque. Changes were the intercooler, cams, ported exhaust manifold, and leaner afr.

I run around 20' of timing at 3 grand, and about 25 at like 5 grand on e85. The torque is amazing when the turbo first hits. I would hate to ever have to run 91 octane again. My afr's were mid to upper 8's (12.5 to 13:1 gas afr) on low end and about 8:1 (12:1 gas afr) on top end. My car always goes richer with more rpms for some reason, even though I have the afr table set leaner on top.

Thanks for sharing that. Nice numbers btw.. I wasnt saying the bc272 cams are wack or anything, there is certainly an increase in power over stock. Im just saying from my research and looking at cam reviews by top shops, mixed with other peoples reviews, I think that these cams need cam gears to really get what you should be getting out of them.

Maybe the bc272 cams didnt take as much low end as Ive always claimed they did, maybe my tune just overall lacks timing on the low end. For example, at WOT, stock 1g compression, on a 11.3ish afr; Im only seeing 10degs of timing at 4k, 12degs by 5k, 14degs by 5500, 16 deg at 6k, then 18 degs by 6500, and 19degs at 7k... This is on 25psi falling to 23-22psi at 7k on only 93 octane which isnt bad at all for the limitations of my ebay fmic and my fuel, but damn seeing the timing you guys get away with I feel confident I can tune my car to hit 380-400 awhp on the 16g if I had e85... 20 degs of timing by 3k is amazing. Maybe a little bit more than Id go for during/below torque peak but still nice to see what the e85 will allow.

 

[delta448]

Just a note: More timing is not always better. There is a point where increasing timing will not increase torque for a given rpm and boost level, assuming no knock. Finding MBT is pretty difficult however without dyno tuning and using anything less than race gas. On pump gas it's nearly impossible because knock will always limit timing to less advance than optimal, so there's no worry there of overshooting the mark. Every engine is different too.

 

[daren_p]

that setup is not a steady curve...

You didn't ask how to get a steady curve, you asked how to setup a 1g timing curve to be like a 2g

Actually the stock 2g timing curve is a pretty steady curve but does have an area/areas (think around 6000 or 6500 IIRC) that has a bigger step up, compared to the rest of the curve. If you are just looking at the timing sliders & thinking they need to have a nice steady curve, this isn't always the case. While my sliders aren't all a nice steady curve, my actual timing advance is.

 

[dnhieu]

i was just pointing out that didnt the guy above say keep the timing within 3-5 degrees of each other??? and you have a very valid point where the curve is steady on the graph...

anyways, i tried that setup and their just isnt enough slider to do that!

 

[turboglenn]

Just to point out, on one of Bushcur's 500 horse pump gas evo's I think he said he was running about 32 psi and only 6 - 8* of timing under wide open. Talk about low advance! But, from all the old tuners i've ever talked to the best strategy is to start with severely retarded timing ( about 5* under 30psi or so) Then, turn the turbo up to it's peak efficiency range, get the AFR's in a "safe zone" and start adding timing until you get knock, then back off a couple degrees.. I've used this practive many times with great sucess, but i've never pushed those kinda boost levels on pump gas either.

 

[daren_p]

i was just pointing out that didnt the guy above say keep the timing within 3-5 degrees of each other??? and you have a very valid point where the curve is steady on the graph...

anyways, i tried that setup and their just isnt enough slider to do that!

That seems strange, how come you don't have enough slider to mimic the 2g factory curve? The most you need to pull is 12 deg if you use the matched setting, doesn't DSMLink allow +/- 15 deg? Now if you try the "recommend" version, the most it pulls is 11 deg. Are you having to pull even more additional timing then the matched 2g curve?

Glenn, I too have seen many threads of guys making big power with what I would call super low timing as well. Without meth I was pretty knock happy with my X series of cams, I was limited to about 20 psi & 14-15deg, with air/fuel in the low 10's. I don't think I could go back to staright pump now