259 hp / 239 tq on 23 psi v-trim. Wait...what?

[JayRolla]

About the same as a 16g?? I find that hard to believe. I've seen mine side by side with a 16g and there is a huge difference in size. Most others had made *way* more horsepower at similar boost levels than I did with this turbo and they were flowing similar or more air. I'm wondering if its the turbo itself.... I wouldn't mind grabbing / borrowing an Big 16g and slapping it on to test it out juuuuust to see what the flow difference is. Going full 50 or 57 trim is also a possibility.

Also, does anyone know what 650 cc's are good for flow wise? Should I be hitting 90% IDC at 35 lb/min?

If I remember right the v-trim is right below a 50trim and ive seen 16g's flow almost as much as a 50 trim. The v-trim is rated 350-450whp. Its pretty much a evo16g with slow spool.

 

[iiiwildfireiii]

Don't believe so. Any way to test it besides yanking it out? I replaced it....two-ish? years ago I think and regularly run cleaner through it. I also have an AFPR. I haven't checked it in a while so maybe the fuel pressure is set too low? That was one of the reasons I was asking how much airflow FIC 650's are good for.

If I remember right the v-trim is right below a 50trim and ive seen 16g's flow almost as much as a 50 trim. The v-trim is rated 350-450whp. Its pretty much a evo16g with slow spool.

Man, if that's the case, I'd rather have the 16g. Seems like it'd put me right where I want to be if I can get the low timing issue resolved.

 

[JayRolla]

Don't believe so. Any way to test it besides yanking it out? I replaced it....two-ish? years ago I think and regularly run cleaner through it. I also have an AFPR. I haven't checked it in a while so maybe the fuel pressure is set too low? That was one of the reasons I was asking how much airflow FIC 650's are good for.





Man, if that's the case, I'd rather have the 16g. Seems like it'd put me right where I want to be if I can get the low timing issue resolved.

You should be fine. I should have mentioned it does have a little more up top and should hold higher boost levels better than a 16g. The low timing is due to knock. If you have a wbo2 tune to a 10.9 afr and you should be good. Timing should peak at 16* and hold till redline if you have no knock. If timing is at around 4* up top like you said and you fix that you should be around your 300whp mark.

 

[8urv8]

Take a look at this log and some of my setting's. This was on 93octane with the nos racing formula octane booster so my timing settings will look alot different but your curve should look similar. Your timing settings are completely flat across the board. You need to get rid of the knock adding some fuel where it start's to knock and through out the rest of the rpm range and then get some sort of a timing curve. You should be able to get around 14-16* of timing out of 93 octane running 23psi. Maybe a little more. Once you do this, it will feel like a differnt car.

 

[8urv8]

Oh, here's my log.

 

[tenn-gsx]

Again look at your pre turbo intake piping. If your using the stock mas and have a leak between the turbo and the mas that will allow unmetered air into the intake system. Having unmetered air will do a few things. You will show low boost est and low lbs per min airflow, as well as you will run leaner than you should. This will in turn make it very difficult to get your fuel trims inline, and cause ALOT of knock.

 

[daren_p]

Just took a very quick look (& haven't read through the thread yet) but I would say a big part of your lack of power is due to knock/very low timing. Your airflow isn't all that bad considering the cams your running & your stock 2g top end (can't directly compare to a 1g as their top ends flow better stock). One of my buddies dyno'd just over the 300 whp last summer on his 2g gst with all the basic bolt-ons, stock cams with an evoIII turbo & right around 20 psi. The vtrim doesn't move huge amounts of air but I do know someone that ran an evoIII then a vtrim back to back & he said the vtrim defently had more uptop. I'd start by being less agressive on leaning out the fuel & try to get your timing back up to something more resonable (atleast the 14-15 deg range). Timing has a much greater effect then running a leaner air/fuel ratio. If it takes running mid to even low 10 to 1 ratios to see the 14+ deg timing, still do it. More then likely you will make a good amount more power.

 

[spyderturbo007]

That was one of the reasons I was asking how much airflow FIC 650's are good for.

Look here for injector and fuel pump calculations.

650cc @ 100% IDC will support 46.66lbs/min
650cc @ 80% IDC will support 37.32lbs/min

 

[UofACATS]

I'm hesitant to start looking for problems based solely on dyno numbers. What type of dyno? Have you been to this dyno before? Having another referance point would be helpful.

The log showing knock and low timing is part of the low power. Like someone mentioned there are many reasons this can occur from high charge temps to a bit lean on the pump gas tune. On pump, I shoot for an AFR of 11:1, but I also get 91OCT here, so take it with a grain of salt. Actually, that goes for all the dyno numbers being spouted.

What octane gas are you running?

 

[97EclipseGSX]

Were the cams degreed when you put them in? If not degreed did you at least try to play with them while on the dyno? You have to remember that the cam settings can play a huge role in whether the car makes power or not especially if they are way out.

Also do you have an EGT gauge? People seem to overlook this aspect of tuning. In cases like this your EGTs are very important and can tell you if something screwball is happening. You seem to be spraying a lot of fuel, for the amount of power that is being registered, I understand there can be many reasons for this, but if your EGT's are cold then your just blowing it all out the back. If your EGTs are hot then you need to consider lowering the timing or adding more or better fuel. This will obviously vary dependent on what you currently have and have tried. If your EGTs are normal then I would start to consider mechanical problems.

You have to remember knock can be created due to both lean and overly rich conditions and watching your EGTs will tell you this if monitored properly. Changing to a larger turbo in most cases will not help you if your cams are out of wack, your fueling needs are not up to par, ....

Just my reccommendations, hope they are useful to you.
Happy tuning.

 

[iiiwildfireiii]

All of you, THANK YOU for your replies and helpful hints and suggestions. Give me a few days to put together some of the answers to questions you asked and find out some facts and I'll give you an update soon. A LOT of the things you've said are.....very.....obvious things I should have seen for myself and I feel like an idiot for even having to ask. Expect an update very soon.

Once again, a huge thank you to everyone for your help!!! I freakin' love my fellow DSM'ers.

 

[dsm-onster]

A little side: the v-trim flows 50+ lbs/min at 60% efficiency as show on it's compressor map. Now I've not seen many people actually this. Mostly just the cy/ty crowd. But the map looks better than a 50-trim with respect to flow. The evo3 16g has never been reported to flow that much. I would just cotinue to tune. Our engines seam to like more fuel and more timing. I think your tune is backwards from the typical 400hp setup.

Your MAFRaw is a bit choppy 2000Hz and up. In fact the graph looks like maf overrun from my exprience. Below is what maf overrun looks like. Notice how the MAFRaw curve levels off and becomes choppy:

And to add to that. Your boostest is dropping down to 15psi by 7000rpm. But you're not seeing boost drop off that much are you? You could have an intake pipe leak. I don't know why you would have maf overrun with your 2g maf at this low a frequency. Plus dmlink is figuring 9ish:1 a/f when you're running much leaner. Which would also indicate overrun or intake pipe leak (not boost leak).

Also. Do you know that your Maf Compensation slider right at 2000hz is moved up 2%. . . This certainly richens things up a little. I'd check for boost leaks and intake pipe leaks, run richer, and add timing.

 

[tenn-gsx]

Did you get the problem fixed?

 

[iiiwildfireiii]

No. Unfortunately not. A week or so after I had posted that, I suffered horrible engine failure. ...ie the pistons made sweet, sweet love to the exhaust valves. Woot!

So, now, I'm in the middle of an engine rebuild and am going back over old logs and threads to get my machine driving right when its finished. I'm attempting an Auto to Manual swap among other things while the engine is out.

So! Quick question, how do you fix this maf overrun? I see how you can switch to a fake maf, but doesn't that require an additional sensor?

 

[tenn-gsx]

I personally havent used fake maf yet but the solution is pretty easy basically. You turn the boost down to a level where you dont overrun and dial everything in at that level. Then use your map from the overrun point on. Since i havent used it I cannot really answer your question too well. If you go on the link forums then you can get much better info on it.

 

[iiiwildfireiii]

I'm curious as to how I might be getting overrun at 2000hz when the 2g MAF is supposed to be good until 2700hz. Thoughts?

createvolumetricefficiencymap [ECMTuning - wiki]

 

[turboglenn]

well, from the logs, the tune is way off. V-trim to4b turbos show good on paper for 350 you'd think, but i've barely seen one break 300 flat.

You should also take a look at your entire intake system , motor health and all the little things that could be robbing you of power.

With a to4e/t3 hybrid 57 trim i was very dissapointed on only get 332/312 but i could only make 20 psi spiing 22 when if first hit. This is another turbo that looks good on a map to an untrained eye, but not only is it laggy it's relaly going to be hard to get 400 horses from it on a 2.0l 4cyl. IT's terribly laggy as well.

Now what i'm getting at is our turbos aren't that different in the real world when it comes to how they perform (that's why 50 trima are so popular, the will usually do better than a 57 on the same 2l motor)

WHat got me a nice broad curve was making sure every little thing i could do on the intake, making nice radiused bends in the IC pipes, nothing sharp. Same for teh exhaust. but even old valve springs and worn valve seats will rob a lot of power from you, not to mention worn rings...then add to that the auto is robbing way more power than a 5 speed would and the numbers you put to the wheel aren't too bad in all actuallity for your setup. There's nothing built in your motor that you stated, so basicaly it's just a turbo upgrade with a FMIC, bigger injectors and some control. Again not bad for that... it's the millions of little tricks and things you do to the car over the years or when it's apart that get you that nice extra bit and teach you a lot along the way..

I'm jabbering from drinking, but point bieng...nuymbers aren't bad... FIX YOUR TUNE, free up some things, BLT everything. compression check and go back.

Good cams on bad springs will not gain you much power at all, do you have springs and retainers?

 

[97gstjosh]

Interesting....
Theres a leak somewhere and why the tranny swap?
Just to get some of the drivetrain loss back?

 

[97gstjosh]

Its in your tune man I made 282.7WHP and 257.3 LB-FT on an E316G with just a street tune and bolt ons. No internal work, running 20.5 PSI

Oh and my Auto tranny

And I forgot to add that was stopping at 6500 RPMS I had a little room left to go

Running 11.2 to 11.3 AFR at WOT

 

[iiiwildfireiii]

Okay, to throw some things out there so everyone is on the same page. I had posted logs on page one. I can't do any more right now as I am in the middle of a rebuild. The pistons kissed the valves and...well, here I am. As to the tranny swap, well...why not? The engine is out of the car, manuals get better gas milage, make more power and are easier to fix.

The short block I've got now has shot peened rods, but stock pistons. Bearings are upgraded and its got the balance shaft removed. Head wise...well, once again, I've found a cheap stock head to stick my cams (Comp 100's) into. Its in excellent shape. Also, I'm taking out my old Johnny Racecar intercooler with 2" inlet and outlets and throwing on my bar and plate Vibrant intercooler that I've had laying around for over a year. Yeah yeah. Call me lazy.

Probably going to go with an ACT 2100 w/ street disk setup for it. Depending on the shape of the transmission (WHEN I FIND ONE), I'll probably get it sent to Shep or Jacks Transmissions to get refreshed. I'm also looking into getting a 255lph fuel pump. Assuming I start pulling some timing and get my airflow corrected, it couldn't hurt having some extra fuel on tap, jic.

As to my posted dyno numbers...well...it was on a mustang dyno and the guys who did it didn't seem like they knew what they were doing. They couldn't get the PC set up for an Eclipse, couldn't get the temp and humidity right, nor could they keep the probe in the tailpipe (giggle) from blowing out. It was putting out so much air it thew the probe halfway across the shop several times. And that was with it CLAMPED down. All in all, I'm fairly suspicious as to the....quality of their service. Also, was running 93 octane that day as always.

So, any other questions, just ask! Otherwise, who wants to come help me put this engine in?

 

[JayRolla]

I would look into getting a 4 puck unsprung ceramic act disc with the 2100. Even Jack would recommend it. They can handle a lot of abuse and would let that 2100 handle more tq. The street discs just fall apart after a few launches.

 

[JayRolla]

Its in your tune man I made 282.7WHP and 257.3 LB-FT on an E316G with just a street tune and bolt ons. No internal work, running 20.5 PSI

Oh and my Auto tranny

And I forgot to add that was stopping at 6500 RPMS I had a little room left to go

Running 11.2 to 11.3 AFR at WOT

Whats the difference from a street tune to another?? You must have a race gas tune? What you make on that?

 

[97gstjosh]

Whats the difference from a street tune to another?? You must have a race gas tune? What you make on that?

I was comparing a street tune to a dyno tune in my opinion saying I would have been able to refine it more. Nope no race gas for me that was with 93 octane. Maybe this summer Ill throw some in and see what I can do. Right now I turned the boost up to 23 pounds no knock so Ill dyno it when the weather clears. I should be over 300WHP

 

[92awddsm]

I would look into getting a 4 puck unsprung ceramic act disc with the 2100. Even Jack would recommend it. They can handle a lot of abuse and would let that 2100 handle more tq. The street discs just fall apart after a few launches.

My street disc with the 2600 is8-9 yrs old, well over 100 awd launches, and it hasnt fallen apart yet.

 

[iiiwildfireiii]

I was comparing a street tune to a dyno tune in my opinion saying I would have been able to refine it more. Nope no race gas for me that was with 93 octane. Maybe this summer Ill throw some in and see what I can do. Right now I turned the boost up to 23 pounds no knock so Ill dyno it when the weather clears. I should be over 300WHP

I'll be very interested to see what you make at that boost level. What are you currently running for tuning and will you be able to post logs for us to see? Your profile mods up to date?

Also, I've been seeing people recommend clutch setups both ways. 2100's with 4-pucks for more torque and 2600's with street disks for drivability. I'm just not sure which would be better for me, especially seeing how I have very little time behind the wheel of a stick. Honestly, the only thing I've driven is my dad's 1g Viper (not bragging, honest, its pretty old) and its much easier to drive because of its extremely short throw and how it just....wants to move as you let the clutch out. Don't even have to touch the gas. Very hard to stall.