Trans/Axle solution for 350-400whp

[Slippi84]

Ok now that I got my hands on all the good stuff to support and withstand high hp romping I need to figure out the two weak points left befroe I break my engine in the start putting this thing to real use. The axles and the Trans are what I'm talking about. I have a engine that should withstand 500whp even though it's not my goal it's possible but my trans from what I have read is not that strong. I need to hear from guys like any and dsm-zero to see what you guys are doing trans and axle wise to get down the 1320. Axles I already figured I need something like stage 3 axles from driveshop but what are you doing about the trans. I don't have the money or ability to take this thing down and rebuild it on a frequent basis. I need a solution that will be pretty long term for realistically 350-400whp every blue moon when I need to go balls to the wall but usualy 150-160whp off and 250whp on the bottle with the first stage.

 

[Locke]

Install safing brackets or weld the diff pin, or replace the diff with a Quaife/OBX. Thats about all you can do.

You may want to get a hold of awddynamite and find out how long his transmissions are lasting.

 

[Slippi84]

Install safing brackets or weld the diff pin, or replace the diff with a Quaife/OBX. Thats about all you can do.

You may want to get a hold of awddynamite and find out how long his transmissions are lasting.

That's what's scaring me I think i heard someone say his are lasting like a trip or two to the track that's not exceptable to me. as for LSD I think that is my only option there and I don't have the money for the quaife and I keep hearing about he obx not fiting but I see so many neon guys with em???

 

[Locke]

It's a corrected OBX. You purchase it, then you fix it, then you install it.

edit: I cannot say much about the OBX's strength, other than it appears to be pretty sturdy. I haven't heard of anyone destroying a corrected OBX.

 

[crab1092]

As far as axles go i am living by the idea of dont upgrade until you break your stockers. I had three 1.8xx 60ft times with 26 x 10 slicks and my stock axles held. That with around 350ish to the wheels. Now i cant tell you how long they will last because i havent been to the track that many times with my slicks.
Locke is correct about our trannys. Upgrade your diff and thats about all you could do besides cryo treating. Awddynamite said his trannys NEVER broke at the track, it was always when he was on the street. It could be coincidence, but i think more trannys and axles are broken due to wheel hop than anything else which is much more likely on street tires than with slicks. Manufactures depot sells our quaife for under a 1000 by the way(thats where i got mine). I know its still twice as much as an OBX but i have seen pictures of other things that OBX makes and well you make that decision.
Overall our drivetrains are pretty stought. I sprayed a 75 shot for about a year and then turboed my car for about another year and a half before my stock tranny crapped out. And the only reason it died when it did it because i missed a gear under boost about as bad as anyone has ever missed a gear.

 

[bullettdsm]

Install safing brackets or weld the diff pin, or replace the diff with a Quaife/OBX. Thats about all you can do.

Yup, that's about it. But as Crab says, our tranny's are pretty stout. And our OEM STOCK axles can take quite a bit of abuse. I would stick with the stock axles until you need better (maybe have the DSS's ready to go. Use them as your back up pair at the track until you break your stockers).

I'm trying a couple new things this coming season, we'll see how that works out.

I believe that AWDdynomite was breaking shift forks on the road. I looked into others that were having that problem to see if it was worth it to develop another fork, but nobody else was having that problem.

Another high powered problem I have heard about was the pads on the shift fork, but so far nobody has a solution (not that it is a widespread problem).

MB

 

[BigRand]

Install safing brackets or weld the diff pin

What are the side effects? I might have it done while my transmission is out right now.

and are "safing brackets" like the phantom grip or retro fit lsd?

 

[Locke]

Absolutely no side effects. Safing brackets just hold the diff pin in place, so that it doesn't slide out. They do the same thing welding the diff pin does, only the safing brackets are removable.

The safing brackets are a Mopar item.

 

[bullettdsm]

The safing brackets are a Mopar item.

PN 05134957AA (off Neon site)

MB

 

[Slippi84]

Hmm good info. So I guess I"ll see how the stock axles hold up. The trans should be in as good condition as one can be considering the person before me did 0 mods and just drove it normal it was a older lady and a mechanic. Car has 130k on it. See the thing is I don't even know the limit of this motor as I have always been a stock block guy now I hsave a built engine except crank but even that is new and treated. Anyone know when a built long block usualy pops ? Because I mean I say 300-400whp but if I get to that and there is no knock I mean the motor is built to take like 600 even though I won't go that far I see no reason why 500 wouldn't be doable though just a matter of changing nitrous pills and making sure that the tune doesn't change from a certain a/f ratio which it usulay doesn't with a wet kit like zex.

 

[crab1092]

Well your rods are rated up to 900hp, but i dont know how much your pistons and crank can take. HOWEVER if you tune correctly then it should be able to take more than you can throw at it. Tuning is the key. Also is there any reason why you went with high comp pistons? Nitrous + turbo + high compression doesnt leave very much room for tuning error. Not to discourage you but dont get ahead of yourself. If it were that easy to make a lot of power many more people would have 500+ horsepower.

 

[Slippi84]

Well your rods are rated up to 900hp, but i dont know how much your pistons and crank can take. HOWEVER if you tune correctly then it should be able to take more than you can throw at it. Tuning is the key. Also is there any reason why you went with high comp pistons? Nitrous + turbo + high compression doesnt leave very much room for tuning error. Not to discourage you but dont get ahead of yourself. If it were that easy to make a lot of power many more people would have 500+ horsepower.

Who said anything about turbo?? This is a ALL nitrous motor. NItrous motors are suposed to be high compression motors to a point of course. I'm looking at a 200-300shot and some kind of timing control like msd dis 2. I think a car with that kinda shot will be a pretty fun sled and go against the grain a little.

 

[Slippi84]

crab1092 I am also curious what the benefits of that neon trans you have is?

 

[crab1092]

Oh damn i didnt realize you werent going turbo. Well if thats the case you may have more problems with drivetrain than most turbo guys do. You will have one broad power curve but here is something to think about. If you spray a 300 shot at 4000rpm you will have an instant increase of almost 400 ft-lbs torque. That would be one hell of a jolt.

crab1092 I am also curious what the benefits of that neon trans you have is?

The neon tranny has a different final drive ratio as well as different gear ratios than that of our stock tranny. All of gears are shorter which gives you more top end speed for each gear but a little less accelleration. This helps to reduce wheelspin as well. Neons.org has a great write-up to show all the different gear ratios. http://www.neons.org/forumdodge/trans.htm

Also 2000 and newer neon trannys have a little beefier gears. I dont know if all the gears are stronger but i know for sure 1st and 2nd are.

I think it would be pretty cool to see an eclipse that has that much nitrous. Just be prepared to buy a lot of racing fuel and have a couple of spare bottles.( I got about 8-10 passes with a 75 shot per 10 lbs bottle)

 

[Talon ESI-T]

Talk to someone who is acredited like Hahn Racecraft. Hahn ran a 3.55 trans from a 95 neon with a quaife and DSS axles and put over 500whp into it. Never had a trans fail on him.

I have about 350-370 hp comming out of the motor and mine only have a retrofit and Stage 2 DSS axles. Whoever told you our tranny's were weak knew nothing about what they were talking about.

 

[Blitzeclips]

Well firstly I really think 600-900HP being thrown around here is a little, uhm, out of range and unrealistic. Albeit the specs may say so, it's pretty unlikely the motor will actually see that.

Now it doesn't matter if the motor can handle 3,000 or 300 HP, fuel can make or break any motor. You starve it out or run lean and it's a wrap. So I'd concentrate on fuel pretty good too.

Slippi, I think you might be asking a little too much. You want a 350-400whp car that you run at that track and you want no issues? I meen that's going to be difficult. The cars are going to break with track wear and tear.

As for AWDDYNAMITE, he technically did blow his tranny on the street but it was on his way home from the dyno run which put down 453whp. So, as you can tell the abuse given on the dyno resulted in the tranny breaking. So, he swapped it out and put in a neon tranny. Did some runs and ended up tearing an axle boot. NOt that it's relevant to the thread but it's to clear up some speculatiosn on what happened..

Slippi, awddynamite and I exchange a few PM's about his launch technique. It's basic to any racer really. You need to slip the clutch just enough to bring on traction. But you can't abruptly catch traction of the jolt will be very very harsh on your axles. Spin al little bit off the line and ease into traction with throttle control.

 

[Slippi84]

Nitrous is not a on and off switch for those of you guys who haven't messed with it latley anymore. I will have either a progressive or dual stage kit with a 1rst gear block out so off the line I will be NA and then as soon as I shift and I already have traction or starting to grip there will be 100 shot which shoudl be the equivalent to you guys hitting full boost then half track or wherever it works best spray the rest. This is the same kind of setup that the 11 sec t25 gst uses annd seems to work wonders for et's. I don't knwo where anyone said 600-900hp???? but this motor is built to take 600 MAYBE and like I said no one is aiming for that much hp anyway. Asking for a car that makes 350-400whp and doesn't break is not to much to ask for when it wil only see that much hp say once a month. I'm not gonna be a every weekend track whore who beats on his car. One nigt a month I'll go and push the limits. I'm not saying that I exspect nothing to break I just don't want to go threw a trans an outing I'm not john sheppard I can't just go oh well lets rebuild it back up. I really like the neon trans mod I"m def gonna try and find a 2000 or newer trans and throw it in. WHat about the diff in them are they just as bad as ours or do you think the stock diff in a unit like that would be fine?

Seems like this is what everyone is suggesting correct me if I'm wrong:

Neon Transmission
QUaife/obx diff
stock axles untill they break then DSS
SBC clutch(still have to talk to andy about which stage)
Comon sense clutch slipping technique

ANything I'm missing?

 

[Talon ESI-T]

The differentials are not weak. I dont understadn why people make statements saying our transmissions are weak. The only issue with our Diff is that is an open diff. LSD is better for traction. Thats all, period, finite.

Get whatever year you want, as long as the trans is in good shape then it will work fine. Add your choice of Differential and your good to go. The issue with the Diff pin comming out is due to the retaining pin comming loose. Personally I believe there is more to the story than anyone knows or admits. Honestly i suspect each diff pin failure has had the differential apart at one time or another (not nec by the owner) and the tension pin re-used or the wrong size replaced. Safeing brackets are a good insurance policy if you do an insert style LSD.

 

[DSM-ZERO]

It's a corrected OBX. You purchase it, then you fix it, then you install it.

edit: I cannot say much about the OBX's strength, other than it appears to be pretty sturdy. I haven't heard of anyone destroying a corrected OBX.

What needs to be corrected on the OBX LSD...I just got one and im going to install it next week.....if you could please explain for all of us thx

 

[bullettdsm]

What needs to be corrected on the OBX LSD...I just got one and im going to install it next week.....if you could please explain for all of us thx

Here you go Zero. Read through.

Team 2GNT Forum - Viewing topic #6773 - OBX LSD

MB

 

[Slippi84]

Yeah that's good news about the trans I can get my hands on a obx lsd pretty cheap. I will be watching how dsm-zero's install goes very closely as that and a clutch are all I have left.

Only bad news I have is that it was like 10* out last night I went to take the head off to switch to my new built block and the very end of the intake cam broke it's just a little piece but I think it will mess up the whole balance of the cam even though it's only a small chip so I have to send that to crower have them replace it. Hopefully they'll be cool as the cam has zero miles on it and it cracked just taking it out. DOn't ask me how maybe the cold made the metal brittle but it def cracked. I'll get my hands on a camera so I can start showing you guys some progress. This is tied directly into my OBX 420a thread to as that project got the back burner untill this is done. I"m gonna be researching the diffrences in a sohc and dohc block for a little while tonight but from the looks of it looks just about the same.

 

[DSM-ZERO]

^^^^Yea i bought the OBX LSD for mt Daily Driver which is my silver car.. The Race Car has A Quaife..Im also doing a non-modular conversion clutch and alum flywheel on my daily driver too..

thanks for the info both Bullettdsm and Locke...really helped out

 

[DSM-ZERO]

Once again thx for great info i ordered all new hardware for my obx today once i get it all in im going to re-build it.

 

[Slippi84]

Ok since all the big wigs seem to already be subscribed here I figure I"ll just ask instead of starting a new thread as it's relevant. I am stuck between the great service and backing and proven nature of a SBC OFE street disk with light weight flywheel option for like $950 vs a Big name Street disk stage3+ neon style non modular clutch and bolt it up to the findanza I already have for like $600. $350 is a lot more money but if the SBC is that much better or the spec stage 3+ not just the stage 3 the stage 3+ isn't a good quality clutch then I'm gonna suck it up and spend the money. Just wanted to hear what you guys thought about these specific units?

 

[DSM-ZERO]

for that much you might as well get a twin disc for 300 more...also check out compition clutch they sell a non-modular conversion w/ alum flywheel for 600 also it is a very good unit and that is the cluth im gonna buy for my daily driver