Holset Turbos

[Maglin]

I just ordered the HX-35 Mitsu housing from Bullseye today. Decided to put the H1E on hold until a later date and the Forged motor is finally together and installed. I can put up some rough HP and Torque figures from a stock motor with stock cams running a Sudo EMS in a few weeks. As far as the Holsets being able to produce the HP that is claimed that is a yes. They flow tons of air and are very efficient. Late spool is the only downfall and that isn't even all that bad for the size of the turbo. On stock cams I don't think I'll really see 500 HP but 425-450 should be a walk in the park. From what I can see with data sheets a HX-35 reaching full spool (22 lbs for me) around 4100-4300 RPMs won't be all that great with stock cams past 5500 as it will start to fall on it's face (as it is for any large turbo). With some FP2's or 272's I expect that 525-550 WHP on a good tune to be attainable with C16.

The Holsets isn't something I would suggest someone using a AFC to purchase as the fuel requirements will require 660+ injectors and that will put you on a timing table that is using far to much timng for such a large turbo. On my first trail pulls I'll be running 13* of timing advance and I'll tune from their.

Once I can get something done for the H1E and get that installed I'm looking for 650 WHP. The HX-40 and H1E's look to be able to produce 700+ WHP with a good tune. I haven't found any compressor Maps for the HX-40/H1E's yet.

But I'll post some pocket dyno figures which is basicly the same as if you where using a G-Tech for power figures. They both use time, RPM, and Gear ratio to get HP/TQ numbers and are usually about with-in 5% of actual output. So those follwing this thread can get a rough estimate of what can be done. The previous Dyno run I'm sure would have shown a much better spool time and run if the AFR could have been better. I've not seen the AFR it was running so no telling but it was said it was running very rich which could have possibly been causing some rich knock. Thus causing later spool and lowered peak power output due to richness and pulled timing.

Was that dyno run with the Bullseye TH? I would assume so as it appears to see full spool at around 4500-4700 RPM. not to sure if it was still building boost post 4500 or if the AFR just started to lean out. I'm thinking it was the later due to what info was given.

I've saw a write-up on a Dodge Omni that someone in England bolted up a WHX-35 with the stock 12cm TH and he said he was seeing full boost around 3900 RPMS. But that was at 2.3 I think that it was attached to with a stock bottom end and a lot of head work done. a custom 4" DP with no exhaust. I'm interested to know how the 12cm TH runs on the 4G63 w/3" turbo back. If I had a T-4 flanged manifold I would definilty let you all know.

 

[MattGVR4]

I'm just wondering how people are hooking up the stock hx35 wastegate actuator to the flapper on the bullseye housing, it sure isn't a direct fit.

Another thing, my wastegate flapper is too floppy and hangs up on the wastegate hole. Not impressive. I don't think a new part should need to be fixed.

Once I get all the small BS worked out with fitting everything I will take my real life car to a real life dyno and we will know if these are what they are cracked up to be.

 

[Maglin]

Matt. I plan to use the stock Holset Actuator as I believe it's a 20 lbs actuator which will definitly help to kept the internal closed at pressures above 30 lbs. It's already threaded and since the new placement is farther from the stock one I plan on just using a bit of round bar and bend it accordingly and putting threads on it. Use a turnbuckle to fasten the new rod to the actuator and mount the stock mounting tab solid and adjust it with the turnbuckle.

I haven't recieved my Housing yet but as far as the flapper hanging up on the wastgate hole. Have you hooked up the actuator and pressurized it to see if the wastegate even opens far enough for it to hang up??? If it still does I don't see any problem with doing a little trimming to get it to not hang up. With a lot of custom parts such as these not everything is going to be perfect for everyone as a lot of people will be running slightly different parts.

 

[MattGVR4]

I understand what it would take to make the wastegate work, but it is far from bolt on as advertised.

As far as the wastegate goes, since the arm is not a bolt on and I haven't fixed it yet, I don't know if it opens far enough to hang up. The wastegate is a piece that everyone uses (at least with an internal gate) and there is nothing custom about it. Everyone's got the same part.

 

[1029TSG]

If there's an issue with the wastegate lever on our housing we would be more than happy to adjust it for you. As far as the actuator, you have to purchase our Holset one if you want it to be a "bolt on" affair. Using the stock Holset actuator requires some bracket and rod adjustment to say the least. We dont recommend it but I have a picture of one that a customer of ours was able to modify.

 

[defrag010]

how are the guys with H1C's mounting their actuators? The H1C uses a v-band on the compressor, and do not come with wastegates stock so they don't have any brackets.

 

[98talonAWD]

^ you have to drill in the back of the compressor cover, then tap the housing and put 4 small bolts on to hold it... thats what i had to do when i had my HX40. and that was with the Bullseye-power actuator.


Hey, just wondering if someone is EVER going to prove without a doubt that these turbos are what the sellers are saying.. im getting a little disturbed that these threads go on and on and on about the turbos and will they fit WH1C's or not, but nobody has yet to strap one on and head to the dyno.

I guess i along with many others are looing for some answers here.. considering the fact that a standard HX35 comes in a 12cm housing..( an 8cm housing is a decent jump for a dsm over a 7cm housing... and a " P" trim wheel inside a small housing isnt going to account for a whole lot of efficiency! im not saying that these arent the way to go. I just know that there needs to be answers and proof so this rediculously long thread can end.

also.. this isnt because im " one of those asshole guys", i just want to know because i sold my HX40 before i could ever use it.

 

[1029TSG]

Bullseye Power test unit data, if this helps.

HX-35 = 494 whp (Jeff Lucas)
HX-35 = 7.62 1/8th mile (Eric Pederson)
HX-40 = 549 whp at 20 psi (Mark Wohler)
HX-40 = 596 whp at 28 psi (John Watts)

 

[98talonAWD]

ok great! i appreciate the fast response.

But what does it take to make those numbers?.. i know that the guy with 549hp @20psi has almost everything under the sun in mods. I.E.. stroker, built head, cmas and so on.

 

[1029TSG]

Actually these were all done on 2.0's, no stroker motors. Yes, all the bolts on's with built motors with the exception of Eric's set up, it was a stock 6 bolt bottom end.

 

[98talonAWD]

I heard that it was on a stroker from the guy i bought mine 8 months ago from. No problem though...

 

[NOSLO2PT0]

Bullseye Power test unit data, if this helps.

HX-35 = 494 whp (Jeff Lucas)
HX-35 = 7.62 1/8th mile (Eric Pederson)
HX-40 = 549 whp at 20 psi (Mark Wohler)
HX-40 = 596 whp at 28 psi (John Watts)

Knowing a lot of the setups that these people are using would be nice. Dyno charts, etc. I'm sure lot of people would like to see where these turbos make full power, start making boost, etc. As for that guy with the 7.62 1/8th mile, I'd just delete that. Running 12.0's on a huge turbo like that is actually degrading to the product. Especially when a little sissy 50 trim like mine has him covered by .3 in the 1/8th on 93 octane

 

[fostytou]

Currently I'm running a T04E. Im a bit dissapointed that I can't get her over 310 ponies at 20psi because its right at the bottom of the efficiency range. Dave might be able to chime in more about what was wrong with my turbo... but after I got the setup I realized that I was looking at about $300 more for the AMS kit with an external gate (because I got an O2 housing and all that other good stuff)

... now I just paid $220 to have my car towed back to AMS (thinking at first it was the head gasket) + $68 to diagnose the problem and test compression + about $90 shipping and re porting +$68 to replace the turbo....
that puts me at $446 above my original cost or $146 ahead plus 2 more weeks of not having my car and rushing to make it to the airport when the car failed.
As far as I know there was a problem with the bolt connecting the center section to the backplate which cocked the center cartridge and spun the compressor against the housing. Dave will have to chime in on for a little more detail.
All in all I got great service.... they shipped the new turbo for free and everything and even gave me another T04E (some of you may remember my other thread).... bit there were still some big costs to the changover since I'm lacking a garage and I also had to accelerate my plans to get a MAF/T and re-tune for the new turbo (though similar... of course slightly different). At that rate I start adding things up and wondering if I should have just bought the full AMS set up and gotten a sweet external gate, dual BB, had enough after the retune and everything for a tubular manni and just been done with it. Of course hindsight is 20/20... but my eyes got opened a little today when I made the attached picture (sorry for the quality)....
and if you notice the thick blue line is a T04B on c16, the medium line is a holset hx35 on mostly c16 provided in this thread, and finally the thin line is the FP 3052 at ?psi on pump (from the FP website)

I'd hate to change this out again right away.... but I can't get tuned by AMS for more than 20psi pump. I'm starting to look at the FPs and some Garrett setups already to get something with a little closer to 400 on the street and a bit better spool. I gues if nothing else just something for people to consider. Its no ones *fault*... sh*t happens but at this point Im starting to think that I would have been much happier somewhere else... I just don't hit the strip enough.

 

[1029TSG]

We sent your turbo back to our distributor to have it checked out. They said that one or more the seal plate bolts were over tightened and stripped out. This holds the back plate to the bearing housing. Once they let loose it allowed the compressor wheel to contact the back plate. Of course they were kind enough to cover it under warranty and that was that. We do apologize for all the labor costs and inconvenience caused by this and hope that you will be able to re-dyno your new turbo and make the power you are looking for. Its possible this turbo started to have issues soon after the original install. Does the new cartridge seem to be running stronger? Will you be able to send it back to the rollers or make a pass at the track?

 

[fostytou]

We sent your turbo back to our distributor to have it checked out. They said that one or more the seal plate bolts were over tightened and stripped out. This holds the back plate to the bearing housing. Once they let loose it allowed the compressor wheel to contact the back plate. Of course they were kind enough to cover it under warranty and that was that. We do apologize for all the labor costs and inconvenience caused by this and hope that you will be able to re-dyno your new turbo and make the power you are looking for. Its possible this turbo started to have issues soon after the original install. Does the new cartridge seem to be running stronger? Will you be able to send it back to the rollers or make a pass at the track?

Both pull REALLY hard as soon as you hit 18psi-ish.... Ive only had a couple of days since I got her back so I havn't been able to do much logging/etc but the pull feels similar. I can post some results by this weekend and I'm planning on heading up to byron sometime this weekend to pull a run or two. This will only be at 20psi however. If everything is looking good I'll probably have it back in for a C16 tune in a couple of weeks.

Just to make a few things clear for everyone looking at these.... the thing SCREAMS even at just 300hp it is a flat line all the way to 7500 and second (wheres my AWD? pulls HARD. Its not too hard to get this thing to move.... but we'll see what results are looking like soon... I'll make sure to keep you updated Dave and thanks for the help.

 

[fostytou]

Just for everyone's gander

a quick video of some boost: Quick boost

and a video that is a bit longer... sorry about the slow launch and the accidental activation of the NLTS in 2nd... I should have used it for real going into 4th but eh: Longer run

These are 20psi and I'm pretty sure the gain on the EBC is 120. To note for anyone who hasn't caught up this isn't a Holset but a T04E .... Dave you may want to tell people how the Holsets will react compared to this.

Also, I should have the 20PSi dyno for you guys soon

 

[Maglin]

^ you have to drill in the back of the compressor cover, then tap the housing and put 4 small bolts on to hold it... thats what i had to do when i had my HX40. and that was with the Bullseye-power actuator.


Hey, just wondering if someone is EVER going to prove without a doubt that these turbos are what the sellers are saying.. im getting a little disturbed that these threads go on and on and on about the turbos and will they fit WH1C's or not, but nobody has yet to strap one on and head to the dyno.

I guess i along with many others are looing for some answers here.. considering the fact that a standard HX35 comes in a 12cm housing..( an 8cm housing is a decent jump for a dsm over a 7cm housing... and a " P" trim wheel inside a small housing isnt going to account for a whole lot of efficiency! im not saying that these arent the way to go. I just know that there needs to be answers and proof so this rediculously long thread can end.

also.. this isnt because im " one of those asshole guys", i just want to know because i sold my HX40 before i could ever use it.

Well a lot of people don't have the funds to just go get stuff right away. I know I had to save up and get some other stuff as well. I'm really hopeing to have my HX-35 installed in a few weeks. I'm still working on putting my FMIC on. I figured I'd do both at the same time to make life easier on me. But I had to wait for other stuff and money in my case. I'm totally willing to try out unproven stuff. Just have to be able to afford it.

 

[fostytou]

Just found out from FP that the pump dyno for the 3052 was at 23psi for all who are curious.

 

[1029TSG]

Some of you have been waiting for the Holset turbine housing to be machined for the Garrett T-3 manifold or header. They are now available.

 

[Maglin]

Just recieved my Turbine housing today. I see what you where talking about with the wastegate flapper being able to stick. But it requires way more movement than any actuator can give to get it high enough for it to stick. So their is no need to worry about it. I'm still haveing to to for my turbo drain to drop ship. I just hope it gets here soon. I'm hoping next weekend to get this turbo installed.

I did have one question though. Looking at the wastegate configuration it appears that not much exhaust can get around the flapper when it opens. Has their been any issue with creep with these housings and the internal gate? I would really like to kept the internal gate as it's just easier for me right now. I just don't want to be creeping to 25+ PSI at 8000 RPMS...

 

[1029TSG]

You're right, the actuator travel is not nearly enough to open the wastegate fully. Most of our customers are able to hold boost at 15 psi or less. The larger the turbine wheel or higher the flow rate, the less wastegate you need to control boost.

 

[98talonAWD]

my buddy bolted his Holset HX40 on last night( my old one that i sold him). It was raining here so we didnt get the full example of power.. his car is FWD and it would spin the tires in 4th gear. The wastegate arm is pretentioned just enough to allow the lowest boost possible and the turbo still pegs 25psi... he has a built bottom end( my old 9.0:1 wiseco/eagle setup) and everything else is stock( sidemount, head with internals, stock cams.)

we are wondering why the turbo wont make anything under 25psi... and its not that we messed something up, the vacuum lines are all run perfectly. i just think its the nature of that turbo. its almost too big for the small 38mm internal gate i think.

any ideas?

 

[1029TSG]

Take the actuator arm off completely and make a pass. This will let the wastegate door "blow open", this should result in very low boost. Then you'll know the wastegate is working. Then hook back up the actuator arm with about 1-2 turns of "pre-load" and bypass your boost controller completely. Just hook your reference straight to the actuator and make another pass. This should net you around 12-15 psi, then hook up your boost controller and bleed off the reference to raise the boost. I hope this helps.

 

[98talonAWD]

we already tried that... and it didnt work, but we'll try it again.

it has around 2-3 turn of pretention on the arm and it still doesnt want to run anything low. By the way... anybody that was looking for a spool time- it gets 22-25psi by 4600-4800rpms. stock head,cams, everything.

 

[1029TSG]

You took the actuator arm off all together and ran it?